2,000 Greater & Lesser Mysteries/2,000 Greater and Lesser Mysteries.iso/ufo/aav/mys02110.txt

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Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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Date: Wed,  7 Oct 92 20:30:22 PDT
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1>+D
Dear Folks: Now to answer a
few questions. I was asked why I got kicked off of the computer for a while.
 I had too much mail in one day and too much mail overall in my Portal
E-mail account and they fined me which depleated my account to zero so they
kicked me off.  They explained it to me and forgave me and put me back on
again. The information about the Dolphin did come from the pulp magazine
called Sun, Sept. 29, 1992 page 20.
John Winston
DwD

,6xDxFx
,
<
0Roman 10cpi
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Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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Subject: The Gunney Sack Man:
  This weekend (Oct, 3, 1992) while I was up at our property on the sides of
Mt. Shasta I came in contact with a friend of mine by the name of Lyle who
is the roving guard for the Mount Shasta Properties Association.  He and I
were exchanging stories of our experiences.  We would see which one had the
most unusual experience. I'd tell one and then he would top it.  It was sort
of a Duel of the Banjoes except we were trading weird stories.  Here we go
with one of his stories; Lyle will be L. and I (John) will be J.
  L. I used to be a logman and I had a job in Sumatra cutting trees off of an
area to build a 35 mile long road for an oil company. We had hired a bunch
of Sumatrans to do the cutting of the trees and one of the men who was a
friend of mine caught malaria. He went down to the river to wash up and
suddenly disappeared. His soap, towel and other things were left on a rock
but he was gone.  He was a normal looking Sumatran of about 140 lbs.  He
showed up again in about 2 weeks and  looked very sick and only was about 75
lbs. There were tigers in the area and a person would have a hard time
staying alive by himself. So they just threw him in a gunney sack, put it on
a pole and took him back.  He said that the little people had captured him.
They wanted him to marry one of their women but he  didn't want to because
he already had a wife and children in his normal life.  The little people
fed him during this time rice made from trees. J. Are you sure that you said
rice made from trees? That would just barely keep him alive. They must have
been torturing him to make him give in.  L. That's right.
  L. Afer doing this his friend became an instant celebrity and all the local
people came around to see him because a lot of the people had been captured
by the little people in the past but very few had returned.  I then asked
him if he wanted me to take him to an American type doctor and he told me,
"No he would just go to the local witch doctor.  That's the last I saw of
him.
  L. These Sumatrans were a very superstitious bunch.  Ever once in a while
they would come across a tree that they would call a ghost tree and would
not cut it down. I'd have to cut it. They would also come across another
tree that would bleed blood and they would not cut it down.  I'd have to cut
those too.
   So that's all of his story.  There is one things I didn't tell Lyle and
that is some people believe there are little people in, on and around Mt.
Shasta.
John Winston.
 I tell one and then he wouewZ
22@8r{`E
D9z
,x(x~x8    xVxexgxihl{RF
D9z
,
0Roman 10cpid for an oil company. We had hired a bunch of Sumatrans to do
the cutting of the trees and one of the men who
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Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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Dear Folks: Please disregard the last information that comes after
my name. It appears that me computer is acting up. Sorry about that.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: A Course In Miracles / Reincarnation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: A Course In Miracles
Organization: HFS, Inc., McLean VA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 04:22:32 GMT
Lines: 106

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:
>
>
>
>
>                Tom Gorski and Erik Radmall
>    had some questions about A Course In Miracles and reincarnation,
>    and John Winston and Doug Thompson gave some information about Nicaea
>
>So, Erik asks:
>
>    >What evidence do you have that reincarnation was accepted before the
>    >5th century by Christians? Who edited it? What council decided it?
>    >What did the Bible originally say?
>
>It wasn't the Council of Nicaea (as John suggested). That was the one where,
>as Doug puts it, they "invented" the Trinity. It was two Councils of
>Constantinople, (334/348?), which decided to refute the teachings of Origen
>(Origines Adamantius).They also confirmed the decision of the Council of
>Nicaea to refute the teachings of Arianism (and therefore to raise Jesus to
>the status of God). Origen was an early Christian philosopher who I think
>went to Greece, although he was originally from Egypt. He taught the pre-
>existence of the soul. That is, the soul existed before you were born. This
>goes along with the Old Testament, where it says in Genesis something like
>"God created man in his own image" (*Past* Tense) When these Councils refuted
>Origen, they automatically struck reincarnation from Christian dogma.

Prexistence of the soul and reincarnation are two separate issues.
The former deals with existence of the soul as spirit before birth
while the latter deals with the same spirit living multiple human
lives serially.  Rejecting the latter does not necessarily mean
rejecting the former.

>
>I read a lot about this when I was still "searching for the TRUTH", and have
>forgotten some of it now, and most of the sources. One very interesting book
>was called "Jesus lived in India", but it was in German (don't know the
>author). There's probably a translation by now. It may not have been this
>book that gave me the quotes, however.
>
>I remember that Jesus said, insisted in fact, that John the Baptist was the
>reincarnation of Isiah. (Matthew 11, 15 confirms this, but I believe there is
>a better quote somewhere.) Also, it is recounted that Jesus healed a man who
>had been blind from birth. (John 9, 1) The disciples asked if the man had
>sinned (to deserve this punishment) or his parents. How can a man sin before
>he is born, unless he has had a life before?

Just so you know, this interpretation is commonly retold by
believers of New Age style religions who believe in reincarnation
(I first heard that party line back in 1974).  I can only advise
you to go and read the passages in context (a commentary might be
helpful), and then ask yourself if the likely explanation of these
events was really reincarnation.


>Heaven is the original state of everything. Bliss. Being one with God. We
>have somehow altered this state for ourselves (by some *mistake*, not a sin)
>and believe we are separate from God. We will all return to God (to the
>"state" of Heaven) in the end. God has arranged this for us, but only when we
>want, as we have free will. We are all souls. (Greys probably are too!) We
>have decided (because we feel separate) to take up bodies and live lives. We
>(our soul, our spirit) do learn through this procedure. It does help us on
>the way back to God. The more we try, the quicker we get back.
>    (Digression: We do have to try to improve our spirit, our mind. If we can
>recognise our ego (the part of us that wants us to be selfish, to be angry,
>to be afraid) then we are well on the way. Jesus gave us a good idea how to
>get back to God, but unfortunately, until this century at least, not many
>people have tried to follow his ideas. Any kind of punishment, revenge, is
>against what Jesus said.)
>
>I am prepared to answer any further questions on Email. Or here, if they
>warrant it. I am not an expert, however. I do not speak as an authority on
>ACIM. I have not even completed the exercises yet, nor have I read all of the
>text. I will do, however.
>
>A word of comfort to all of you who have struggled as far as this:
>    We *all* get to Heaven in the end, because we're all part of God. A
>Course In Miracles says that there are thousands of ways back to God, and
>ACIM is just one of these.

This is more of a New Age interpretation of Jesus which conveniently remembers
the loving aspect of God but ignores His justice.  Just for an example:

MAT 23:29   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
            You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the
            righteous.
MAT 23:30   And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we
            would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the
            prophets.'
MAT 23:31   So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of
            those who murdered the prophets.
MAT 23:32   Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

MAT 23:33   "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being
            condemned to hell?

Like I said, go back and read the book in context (in its entirety if possible).

>Paul Milsom


--
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  [e-mail]
HFS, Inc.          VA20     |     UUCP:  uunet!hfsi!ata
7900 Westpark Drive     MS:601       |    Voice:    [phone]
McLean, VA  22102               |      FAX:    [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Face On Mars An Other Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: details on hoagland's book.
Keywords: hoagland, book, monuments, mars
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 03:45:39 GMT
Lines: 28

a kind soul sent this to me; I forthwith post it to the net.

"telnet dra.com" yields:

   Type of Material: Book

     LC Call Number: QB641 .H63 1987

             Author: Hoagland, Richard C., 1945-

              Title: The monuments of Mars : a city on the edge of forever /
                      Richard C. Hoagland.

   Publication Info: Berkeley, Calif. : North Atlantic Books, c1987.
  Phys. Description: xxvi, 348 p., 34 p. of plates : ill. ; 23 cm.

              Notes: Includes bibliographies and index.

           Subjects: Mars (Planet)--Surface.
           Subjects: Life on other planets.
           Subjects: Cydonia (Mars)

     LC Card Number:    87010813
               ISBN: 0-938190-79-2 : $25.00
               ISBN: 0-938190-78-4 (pbk.) : $14.95



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From: [e-mail] (The Clone of Claudio Calvelli)
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Subject: Re: where is GARY?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 92 08:45:19 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> Lou Ciphre writes:
>
> where are you gary?  it's been a while.

The only reason why the aliens allowed him to tell the world about
them is because they assumed that nobody would believe such a story
from somebody who had just escaped from a mental hospital. Luckily
(and unfortunately for the aliens) we know better. It is *obvious*
that the aliens would put a base in a mental hospital. It is even
more obvious that nobody would believe a patient claiming that the
hospital is full of aliens, and the medical staff is actually an
army of clones ready to do whatever the aliens want them to do.

Of course, I know that Gary is sane. He has been locked in the alien
base, not in the hospital. And I know from first-hand experience that
the aliens *are* cloning people. Heck, I am a clone myself. They took
me during the voting period in an attempt to change the results of the
election for "Spokesman for Earth", which indeed moved to the more
general title of "Spokesbeing for Earth". This was precisely to allow
clones and aliens to take part in the election.

Now, since the aliens have released their control for a second, I am
going to post the truth:

CONNECTION CLOSED

--
The Clone of Claudio Calvelli
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: A Course In Miracles / Reincarnation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: A Course In Miracles
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet)
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Hello Tom Gorski - I owe you an apology!

    >I'm somewhat confused by the references to my ego by yours

I use the term "ego" to mean a "mechanism" we have in our consciousness which
provides us with reactions of fear, hate, jealousy, lust etc. to certain
situations. As far as I understand ACIM, we invented the ego to protect
ourselves, and also to distract us from God. The ego is the part of me that
reacts to situations automatically. I get mad at someone or something. It
just happens. I don't consciously think about producing these emotions. When
I (Paul) *notice* that my ego has automatically produced an emotive reaction
for me, I mostly see that it's not going to help the situation, and can
reject it. I attribute this ability to the exercises in ACIM. I did not do
this before. Of course, sometimes I don't notice that it's the ego at work
when I get mad...

    >it's so much easier to point out somebody else's foibles as opposed
    >to one's own..

I honestly didn't mean it like that. I don't know any of your foibles. I
don't pretend to be any better than you, or anybody. I'm sorry I offended
you. (It's my ego that feels hurt when I read "attacking" criticism. Maybe
you (and the others) don't even intend it as an attack - that is then my ego
just imagining it like that...)


    >As you merrily plough through the text, you'll come to the parts where
    >it says that all of your perception-based systems for ingesting
    >information are hosed up because what you're seeing is your own illusory
    >thoughts, not what's really there, or something to that effect.  The
    >Text even mentions in passing that this *includes* the very exercise of
    >reading the Text in first place.

    >That's the paradox:  here you're reading a book that has the Wisdom of
    >the Ages, all of the answers, but you vision might be blurred, so how
    >can you tell if you're reading it correctly or not?

Yes, of course, you're right. (But something seems to get through anyway.)

    >The transformation takes place entirely in your head!

Yes, there is something that takes place, even though, rhetorically speaking
it shouldn't be possible.

    >[...of my suggested exercise, which you didn't _really_ do (:-))

You're right! On reflection you must have meant thinking "I don't know what
anything means" *simultaneously* to reading the text. I thought of simply
interrupting the reading to do it. You use the word "momentarily", which for
me (I learnt British English) meant "just for a moment". (I'd just like to
say that the exercises don't ask you to exercise the idea and read the
explanation for it simultaneously.)

    >Well, I guess it's fair to say about ACIM, that it certainly *does* hold
    >all the answers for those who believe it to be so..

Yes. So does the bible. So does my mind, so does my ego. (The problem is,
which is the *best* bet....?)

    >Perhaps the fact that I can take a critical look at the Text means that
    >my ego *is* threatened, and that the material is really onto something
    >in me.

Yes. Good. ACIM believes that the world is neutral. All people, events that
annoy me are just a reflection of something in me.

    >Compare that to your situation, where your ego publicly trumpets the
    >virtues of ACIM.

Yes, even better! Of course, you're absolutely right! I'm only on the Newsnet
because of my ego!
I do, however, try to be nice to the people I email to, and not to let my ego
get the better of me. I try to get people thinking about what they believe
they think.
Look at a quote from A Course In Miracles to see how my ego got me:

    Manual For Teachers, p.57. Chapter "Is Reincarnation so?"
    (A "Teacher" is also a student. I see it as me (Paul) here.)

    "For our purposes, it would not be helpful to take any definite stand on
    reincarnation. A teacher .. should be as helpful to those who believe in
    it as to those who do not. If a definite stand were required of him, it
    would merely limit his usefulness, as well as his own decision-making.
    Our course is not concerned with any concept that is not acceptable to
    anyone, regardless of his formal beliefs. His ego will be enough for him
    to cope with, and it is not the part of wisdom to add sectarian
    controversies to his burdens."

Please note the bit about my ego! I fell for it again. Now it's lumbered me
with this and two more letters to answer. My ego would also like you to know
that it entered this argument with the simple intent of getting people with
fixed ideas about religion to think again. Let that be a lesson to me!


    >Actually, according to ACIM, the ego, the part which thinks
    >of itself as "We" or "I", _doesn't_ make it back to God.  Why?  Because
    >it's an illusion, a self-referential illusion that thinks it is
    >separate from God.  The most that can happen is that one day, this
    >illusion goes:

      ><poooof!>  (The ego disappears in a cloud of greasy black smoke.)

I'm looking forward to that day! Hey, you know more about all this than I do!

Thanks for your time and trouble, Tom.              Paul.








Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland
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Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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Dear Astral Folk: Boy, last night's OOBE train wound up being a rough
one. I wound up in the lower astral soup (like premordial soup the
people from NASA always are talking about) thinking about a dog running in
the wrong direction with no head. Probubly my spirit was out doing
all sorts of good stuff though. I got the feeling that all this
information that is in this collection should be preserved for posterity
some way. Everybody had a good time on the OOBE train. A bunch of them
showed up at my house last night. One of these days we'll have to get
this thing all organized but then it would not be as much fun.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: A Course In Miracles / Reincarnation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: A Course In Miracles
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet)
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Hello Jean-Marc (Vezien). Thanks for your comments. You write:


    >The idea of a book which has ALL the answers is IMHO a bit premature.
    >We're still in the childhood of humanity, after all.

    Yes, we do seem to be. The answer that ACIM gives is twofold:  We have
been this way before. We are just doing re-runs of lives we have already seen.
    The whole physical universe is an illusion, albeit a very clever one. We
have trapped ourselves in it. The quick way out is to "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you", and through forgiveness.

We are all one consciousness, but believe we are split into countless
individuals. It's almost impossible to accept this, I know. As you say:

        >A thousand men, a thousand pain / Each pain is different.

Our ego, a "mechanism" that we consider to be ourselves, tells us we are
separate from each other. The same ego tells us our feelings of hate, anger,
jealousy, lust, fear.. are justified.

    >Of course, you could say my ego cannot accept such a wonderful book.

I do not mean this to be sarcastic, but that's exactly it. My ego tells me
things like that all the time, too. Sometimes I notice that somehow I've been
given a feeling that I didn't order. My ego would live my life for me quite
easily. It's my ego that tells me that if a person steals something from me,
it's only right if I take it back, or even take him to court, even if he
needs it more than I do.

        >>Lesson 2 then continues with "I have given everything I see in
        >>this room (on this street...) all the meaning that it has for
        >>me"... Now I had simply not seen it like that before, but as
        >>soon as I read it I thought to myself "Hey, that's true!" I had
        >>assigned meaning to things subconsciously. Presumably we all do.

    >I don't want to brag, but one doesn't need any miraculous revelation for
    >that. Read some philosophy books, and soon everything is meaningless.
    >Don't try and tell me this is a new idea.

I don't claim it to be a new idea, and I'm sure you're right about some
philosophy books. (Our philosophy teacher's ego obviously wanted to keep us
away from that kind of book.) I didn't say that I noticed that things were
meaningless, but that I do assign meaning to everything material, including
people.

        >> Heaven is the original state of everything. Bliss. Being one with
        >>God. We have somehow altered this state for ourselves (by some
        >>*mistake*, not a sin) and believe we are separate from God. We will
        >>all return to God (to the "state" of Heaven) in the end. God has
        >>arranged this for us, but only when we want, as we have free will.
        >>We are all souls. (Greys probably are too!) We have decided
        >>(because we feel separate) to take up bodies and live lives.

    >Boy, is that original. "The fall of man", again and again. ALL the
    >cosmogony myths, throughout the world, say the same thing. Which doesn't
    >mean it's true. It's just that the universe is so harsh and cold and the
    >man so little and helpless....

I had never heard this particular explanation of "original sin" before ACIM,
nor that it was indeed not a sin at all. And apparently we're not so "little
and helpless" after all - we're God's own children. He loves us and wants to
help us.

    >What if I don't want to come back to God but rest in peace after a
    >pleasant life spent drinking beer and loving women ???

A very good point. It sounds very tempting. It may be possible, at least
until the rest of us get our act together (and then everybody gets back
home), I haven't read so far yet. Maybe you could live a life where you stay
attractive and rich and healthy enough to fulfil this for a century or so.
Maybe that's why the greys are here actually, to find out how to have fun!
Or, of course, to find out how to better their soul (if they have a soul).

        >>Love and blessings to you all.        Paul.

    >Why, thanks !!

You're very welcome. If you can't use them, please pass them on.

    >Now give me your left cheek .

Sure. Here...

                    And some more blessings to you.      Paul.

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland
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From: [e-mail] (Ed McCreary)
Subject: Re: Face On Mars An Other Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: hoagland, book, monuments, mars
Sender: [e-mail] (Netnews Account)
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:57:01 GMT
Lines: 84

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>a kind soul sent this to me; I forthwith post it to the net.
>
>"telnet dra.com" yields:
>
>   Type of Material: Book
>
>     LC Call Number: QB641 .H63 1987
>
>             Author: Hoagland, Richard C., 1945-
>
>              Title: The monuments of Mars : a city on the edge of forever /
>                      Richard C. Hoagland.
>

..info deleted for space...

I haven't seen this posted, so here it is.  It's from the sci.space
faq.



    THE "FACE ON MARS"

    There really is a big rock on Mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid
    face. It appears in two different frames of Viking Orbiter imagery:
    35A72 (much more facelike in appearance, and the one more often
    published, with the Sun 10 degrees above western horizon) and 70A13
    (with the Sun 27 degrees from the west).

    Science writer Richard Hoagland has championed the idea that the Face is
    artificial, intended to resemble a human, and erected by an
    extraterrestrial civilization. Most other analysts concede that the
    resemblance is most likely accidental. Other Viking images show a
    smiley-faced crater and a lava flow resembling Kermit the Frog elsewhere
    on Mars. There exists a Mars Anomalies Research Society (sorry, don't
    know the address) to study the Face.

    The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely high-resolution
    camera, and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
    question in a few years. In the meantime, speculation about the Face is
    best carried on in the altnet group alt.alien.visitors, not sci.space or
    sci.astro.

    V. DiPeitro and G. Molenaar, *Unusual Martian Surface Features*, Mars
    Research, P.O. Box 284, Glen Dale, Maryland, USA, 1982. [Apparently the
    first lengthy consideration of the Face published. Does anybody know
    what it costs?]

    R.R. Pozos, *The Face of Mars*, Chicago Review Press, 1986. [Account of
    an interdisciplinary speculative conference Hoagland organized to
    investigate the Face]

    R.C. Hoagland, *The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever*,
    North Atlantic Books, Berkeley, California, USA, 1987. [Elaborate
    discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the Face
    form a city]

    M.J. Carlotto, "Digital Imagery Analysis of Unusual Martian Surface
    Features," *Applied Optics*, 27, pp. 1926-1933, 1987. [Extracts
    three-dimensional model for the Face from the 2-D images]

    M.J. Carlotto & M.C. Stein, "A Method of Searching for Artificial
    Objects on Planetary Surfaces," *Journal of the British Interplanetary
    Society*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p.209-216. [Uses a fractal image
    analysis model to guess whether the Face is artificial]

    B. O'Leary, "Analysis of Images of the `Face' on Mars and Possible
    Intelligent Origin," *JBIS*, Vol. 43 no. 5 (May 1990), p. 203-208.
    [Lights Carlotto's model from the two angles and shows it's consistent;
    shows that the Face doesn't look facelike if observed from the surface]


Just for the record, I've been playing with the raw data from
NASA for several years now and nothing has convinced me it's not
a bunch of rocks.  It looks neat, but two (very noisy) pictures
is not enough to derive the history of a civilization from.


--
In the midst of the word he was trying to say,|[e-mail]
     In the midst of his laughter and glee,   |Me, speak for Compaq?
He had softly and suddenly vanished away---   |Yeah, right.
     For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.   |#include <stddisclaimer.h>
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris)) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes in part:
|>
|> >> [...]
|>
|> >
|> >I'm typing as s-l-o-w-l-y as I can.  You are still not getting it.  Try
|> >to pay attention this time:
|> >   "out & out denial" is NOT "the mindset of the skeptic".  The mindset
|> >   of the skeptic is "That's an astonishing claim, what is the evidence
|> >   for it?"
|>
|> WRONG!!  That is a cynic.  The midset of a skeptic is:
|>       "I am going to scoff at the very idea of this new notion
|>        until someone comes along with enough evidence to make me
|>        look like a blabbering fool!"
This is ridiculous.  Use a dictionary for gosh sake.  You have the
words "cynic" and "skeptic" exactly reversed.  Talk about looking
like a blabbering fool!  There's not much point in discussing this,
as we don't seem to be able to achieve a common terminology.


|> That is a lot of the problem that is surrounding the "face."  NO ONE KNOWS for
|> certain what it is.  Everyone has ideas, but those aren't proof.  I think the
|> big question is - will you be willing to accept the truth when it is
|> discovered?
If you were paying attention, you'd find that ALL of the skeptics have
been saying all along that they--we--will revise our opinions when
new evidence arrives.  My question was whether the wonder-mongers,
who apparently can ignore 99.999999999% of the evidence about Mars,
will admit THEY were wrong.

I might point out to you that I, for one, never used either the word
"proof" nor the word "truth"--YOU are the one concerned with those matters.
I, for one, have been speaking of "evidence" and "possible hypotheses",
and such like.


|> >On the other hand, I'd probably have bet against him finding an unknown
|> >continent.  Of course, he probably would have bet that way, too.  I'd
|> >also have bet him that he wouldn't make it to the indies.  He'd have taken
|> >that bet, but I wonder who would have paid off?
|>
|> You would have.  Then when they actually discovered what they found, you
|> could crawl out of your grave and take your money back.

You are confident that I would have paid off, but that shows that
you don't know me!  (Among other things you apparently don't know.)

As I might expect, you missed the subtle point here.  I was making
a bit of a joke.

A DETERMINED, James Randi-ish, skeptic might have responded to
Columbus's claims by demanding PROOF that it really was the Indies,
rather than a hoax, a mistake, a lie, or whatever.   I mean, he could have
bopped over to Sardinia for a bit of a vacation, and then returned with
some cobbled up "artifacts" and "natives" (and how about a "shroud" or
two).  Europeans of that time would have only the foggiest notion of
how to test the claim that some distant unfamiliar land-fall was or
was not the indies.

|> "Ignorance is bliss, but intellegence is happiness" -- Yangthei
"Ignorance is curable, stupidity is permanent."  -- my dad.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:16:24 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations) writes:
> I was told that my statement was unclear, so I will try one more time.
>
>
> When I was a little girl I aw auras, now as an adult I still see auras.
>
> This is NOT and I do repeat, NOT a figment of my imagination.
>
> So the remark about if this is a figment of my imagination, then I must have
> a really good one, meant, Your nuts buddy!  I can see them.  You can't tell
> me I can't.
>
> Hope that clears it up.
>

Kathy, this doesn't clear anything up. I can say I see little white
kangaroos hoping around me, that doesn't mean I'm sober ;).

What do you see exactly. Plize, no "Well, a kind of light around the head
of people". Try and be constructive. I'm very willing to believe you.
ever considered some simple tests ?(read Randi's books for a simple, conclusive
design. There's a big reward if you can convince him !).
I mean, if I could see "auras", I would definitly go and see doctors and
convince them !!!


> Kathie  ;.)


JM.
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: A Course In Miracles / Reincarnation
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: A Course In Miracles
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:20:16 GMT
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Hello John Ata. You're absolutely right! You say:

    >Prexistence of the soul and reincarnation are two separate issues.
    >The former deals with existence of the soul as spirit before birth
    >while the latter deals with the same spirit living multiple human
    >lives serially.  Rejecting the latter does not necessarily mean
    >rejecting the former.

Yes. You are right. I cannot prove that they were actually voting against
reincarnation, nor can I, with my limited knowledge, prove or argue
convincingly that reincarnation was a generally held belief before this
Council.

        >>I remember that Jesus said, insisted in fact, that John the Baptist
        >>was the reincarnation of Isiah. (Matthew 11, 15 confirms this, but
        >>I believe there is a better quote somewhere.) Also, it is recounted
        >>that Jesus healed a man who had been blind from birth. (John 9, 1)
        >>The disciples asked if the man had sinned (to deserve this
        >>punishment) or his parents. How can a man sin before he is born,
        >>unless he has had a life before?
You say:

    >Just so you know, this interpretation is commonly retold by
    >believers of New Age style religions who believe in reincarnation
    >(I first heard that party line back in 1974).

Does that mean that it's wrong, then?  What is *your* answer?

    >I can only advise
    >you to go and read the passages in context (a commentary might be
    >helpful), and then ask yourself if the likely explanation of these
    >events was really reincarnation.

I have spent over seven years in a "Hauskreis", a kind of bible-group. We
have read Matthew and John, and a few other books. We have two trained people
from the church who explain (sometimes interpret) things for us. They told me
that God had made an exception here, and had indeed reincarnated Isiah (in a
kind of one-off -"einmalig") for His own special reasons.

We also dealt with the man who was blind from birth. They couldn't answer my
question of "*why* the apostles imagined that the man could sin before he was
born. They said the disciples probably didn't mean it like that. The reason
that the man was there anyway was just to help Jesus get his message across.
It didn't interest me so much why the man was there, just why the apostles
should ask such a stupid question if reincarnation doesn't exist.

        >>(My quote deleted for brevity's sake)

    >This is more of a New Age interpretation of Jesus which conveniently
    >remembers the loving aspect of God but ignores His justice.  Just for an
    >example:

            "Woe to you..hypocrites!..shedding the blood of the
            prophets..murdered the prophets..sin of your forefathers!
            You snakes! You brood of vipers .. condemned to hell..

Wow, it sure sounds like a fun belief you got there. Somebody really wanted
to put strong words into Jesus's mouth. Pity they just don't go along with
his main message of love and forgiveness. Anybody else who comes along and
says something like "Listen, you've got it all wrong, God loves you *all*,
and forgives you!", he'd sure better be careful, or he might get crucified
right away, before people start to believe him.

Again, to come back to "Justice". In A Course In Miracles, Jesus says:

    "What can it be but arrogance to think your little errors cannot be
    undone by Heaven's justice? And what could this mean except that they are
    sins and not mistakes, forever uncorrectable, and to be met with
    vengeance, not with justice? Are you willing to be released from all
    effects of sin? You cannot answer this until you see all that the answer
    must entail. For if you answer "yes" it means you will forego all values
    of this world in favour of the peace of Heaven.  Not one sin would you
    retain." (Text, Page 501 - "The Justice of Heaven")

I'm really sorry - my ego got the better of me once again. If you want to be
too nasty for the net, you can Email me. I'm not attacking you personally,
John, it's just those "God of wrath" ideas I don't agree with. I don't think
they came from you, anyway. They've been around for thousands of years.

I also should add, as I did in my letter to Tom, that my ego is pushing me
here to go *against* the teachings of ACIM, which says:

Manual For Teachers, p.57. Chapter "Is Reincarnation so?"
    (A "Teacher" is also a student. I see it as me (Paul) here.)

    "Our course is not concerned with any concept that is not acceptable to
    anyone, regardless of his formal beliefs. His ego will be enough for him
    to cope with, and it is not the part of wisdom to add sectarian
    controversies to his burdens."


                Love in Christ,     Paul.

Hey, and don't worry. If you're right, you'll have the last laugh anyway,
because I'll probably go to hell, and you can thumb your nose at me from
Heaven.




Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland
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From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:51:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
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According to [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith):
>I wonder how many bets were taken that Chris Colombus would sail off
>the end of the Earth?

Good point... NOT.  You're the CRAZYMAN if you think that educated
people of Columbus' time considered the world to be flat.  They knew
it was round!  They had known that it was round since Greece was the
dominant world power.  They were just wrong about its diameter.

As for uneducated people... well, there there some today who think the
earth is flat, or that the Apollo missions were faked, or that pro
wrestling is real.  The beliefs of the ignorant prove nothing.

>My point being that if it were up to the neysayers & doubting
>Thomases in the world, we as a species would still be gathering nuts
>& berries.

Naysayers aren't a problem.

Credible people who believe without proof are a problem.

>We would still all think the world was flat.

This belief was disproven by _experiment_ long before Columbus
lived, not by idle speculation.

Investigative resources are limited.  Not all possibilities can be
investigated in finite time.  The art is in choosing good targets.

The "Mars face" is, in all probability, a mere trick of light and
shadow and the brain's built-in face recognition circuitry.  If NASA
decides to ignore the "face" in favor of other investigations that are
more likely to produce good science, well, more power to them.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
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From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:59:34 GMT
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According to [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris)):
>According to [e-mail]:
>>The mindset of the skeptic is "That's an astonishing claim,
>>what is the evidence for it?"
>
>WRONG!!  That is a cynic.

WRONG!!  (As you would say.)  A cynic is a person who does not believe
that humanity has an innate goodness; he therefore considers all
actions to be, in the end, manifestations of selfishness and greed.

Cynicism and skepticism are entirely separate qualities, excpet
insofar as skeptics may tend toward cynicism after seeing all the
scams perpertrated daily by con men everywhere.

>The point being that people held one belief and were so unwilling to
>give a stroke of possibility to the opposition that they place money
>against it.

Pshaw!  By this reasoning, if I were to bet that Old Gray Nag would
win the Kentucky Derby, it must be because I am unwilling to consider
that she might possibly lose!  What poppycock!

All a bet shows is the bettor's idea of the _chances_ of a given
outcome, not his unwillingness to consider other alternatives.  In
fact, a good bettor _must_ consider alternatives, or else he is
throwing his money away.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris))
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:11:12 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations) writes:
>> [...]
>
>Kathy, this doesn't clear anything up. I can say I see little white
>kangaroos hoping around me, that doesn't mean I'm sober ;).
>
>What do you see exactly. Plize, no "Well, a kind of light around the head
>of people". Try and be constructive. I'm very willing to believe you.
>ever considered some simple tests ?(read Randi's books for a simple, conclusive
>design. There's a big reward if you can convince him !).
>I mean, if I could see "auras", I would definitly go and see doctors and
>convince them !!!
>

I can't speak for Kathie, but what I see is similar in nature to the
atmospheric disturbances caused by heat. I ususally see it in a 1"-3" form
around the persons body.  I have a little trouble explaining how I can read it.
It is vaugly related to intensity and what it "reminds" me of in my mind.  I
understand that is a bit hard to comprehend, but I know of no words to explain
what I am talking about.

I used to think that I was crazy or something.  Then I realized that what I
"read" from the auras was most often true.  As for proving it to doctors...
I am not quite sure how one could go about doing that.  It would be an
interesting challenge, though.

Later!
C J Rogers



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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 8 Oct 1992 17:51:53 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
=[e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
=
=>You're on: my hundred dollars that the stupid "Face" is natural
=>against your dollar that the "face" is artificial, with the
=>proviso that WE mutually agree on the decision. No appeal to
=>any third party: this will put your integrity and mine on
=>public trial. What say you? (I must say that I don't expect
=>the Mars Observer to return a high resolution image of the thing,
=>because the high resolution camera can't really be aimed...)
=
=sure, that sounds good.
=
=you raise an interesting technical point; it is my understanding that the
=camera on the viking also couldn't be aimed as such, and yet we got these
=provocative photos. another valid point that you raise is that the verdict
=might be 'insufficient evidence'.

First of all, there'd be damned little point in making a camera with a 2-meter
resolution if you couldn't aim the damned thing, now wouldn't there?

=the 'face' by itself, to me, wouldn't be all that exciting. the geometric
=relationships between the 'face', 'city', 'D&M pyramid', 'fortress', 'straight
=wall' etc are what, to me, raises the possibility that these might be
=artificial constructions.

Second, you both seem to be forgetting about the laser altimeter.

=one of the more interesting points in hoagland's book is his statement that
=half a million years ago the (solstitial? either that or equinoctial) sun
=rose over the 'wall' and 'face' as seen from the center of the 'city'. has
=anyone else bothered to work this out?

What if it's true.  For *ANY* arragement anywhere close to what we see, you'd
get the same result.  The only difference would be the length of time you'd
have to go back before you found your "remarkable coincidence."  Or does
Hoagland claim to have somehow dated the alleged face?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 8 Oct 1992 17:56:38 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>>you raise an interesting technical point; it is my understanding that the
>>camera on the viking also couldn't be aimed as such, and yet we got these
>>provocative photos.
>
>So Viking got lucky. The Observer high res camera will see very narrow
>swaths in the direction that it happens to be pointing;
>it can't be aimed without turning the entire
>spacecraft. Thus it will photograph at most a few percent of the surface
>over the life of the mission. It will be pure luck if the "face" happens
>to pass before the camera.

Unless NASA should happen to decide that the formation is interesting enough
(or that it's worth devoting a little mission time to proving crackpots like
Hoagland wrong) that they'll aim the high resolution camera at it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 8 Oct 1992 17:53:54 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]> writes:
=I agree with you. I think.  A few years ago, while I was still in high school,
=I was talking to this guy who was filming a video yearbook for our school.
=While I was interviewing him we somehow got on the subject of UFO's and such.
=Anyway, he told me about the book "Faces of Mars".  I don't remember everything
=he said, but I do remember it was very convincing. Ever since I have been
=trying to get a copy of that book but cannot seem to find it.  Do you know
=who the author was?

I think it was Richard Hoagland, the same crackpot who claims that the Mars
Observer was actually launched nearly a year ago on a secret shuttle mission.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 8 Oct 1992 18:01:05 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
=I would not, on present
=evidence,  unequivocally state 'there are artificial structures on mars'.
=the most cogent criticism of the photographs is that they are greatly en-
=hanced (but the geometrical and astronomcial alignments I have just mentioned
=are apparent in the unenhanced photographs).

Geometric alignments, yes. Astronomical alignments, no.  Try the following
experiment:  Pick any direction within a few degrees of where the sun rises at
summer solstice from where you live.  Get your hands on a computer program that
models the precession of the Earth's axis.  Run the program until you find a
date when the direction you picked actually pointed toward where the sun rose
at the solstice.  Having done that, tell me what's so remarkable about the fact
that Hoagland did the same thing with the Cydonia formations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris))
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:24:36 GMT
Lines: 53

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>According to [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith):
>>I wonder how many bets were taken that Chris Colombus would sail off
>>the end of the Earth?
>
>Good point... NOT.  You're the CRAZYMAN if you think that educated
>people of Columbus' time considered the world to be flat.  They knew
>it was round!  They had known that it was round since Greece was the
>dominant world power.  They were just wrong about its diameter.
>
>As for uneducated people... well, there there some today who think the
>earth is flat, or that the Apollo missions were faked, or that pro
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sad isn't it?  Some people are just *too* stubborn.

>wrestling is real.  The beliefs of the ignorant prove nothing.
>
>Naysayers aren't a problem.
>
>Credible people who believe without proof are a problem.

That is what we have all been trying to say all along!

>The "Mars face" is, in all probability, a mere trick of light and
>shadow and the brain's built-in face recognition circuitry.  If NASA
>decides to ignore the "face" in favor of other investigations that are
>more likely to produce good science, well, more power to them.

We, I think, have been trying to say the same thing all along and have been
getting our signals crossed.  None of us (except the crazy fanatics) can say
that the face is artificial or real.  We all have our own beliefs, that is
only natural.  We just have to be ready to accept the truth when we find it.
That includes both sides of the argument.  What good will it do to say that the
face is artificial when it has been shown very conclusivly that it is natural?
(or visa-versa).

As for my butchered definitions of cynic and skeptic in my other posting...
I have always used those words in that way.  If they are actually reversed from
how I use it, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.  (I'll check before I post
next time.  Then again, maybe we all should.  That would cut down on the
stupid posting ratio here.)

BTW, flames are more than welcome!  It has been rather chilly here lately.


>Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>

Later!
C J Rogers



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From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 19:43:00 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson) writes...
>Yep, I want in on this too.  :)  I'll bet that Mars turns out to be exactly
>what we think it is--a big hunka dusty rock.  A face on Mars is like the man
>in the moon.  All imagination but no tinkerings of a long dead race.  I'll
>bet 100 kugerands (however you spell it) :-)
>Colleen

Colleen,
  You might want to change your bet from Krugerands. Remember that they
are made of Gold and, while illegal in the U.S., are going for upwards
of $100+ American dollars on the open market.
  Just imagine a bit of A.C. Clarke here for a moment. What better way
for some spacefaring society to know when to check among the billions
of stars in the galaxy than to leave a beacon in the form of some en-
ticing figure on a neighboring planet to one likely to develop some
form of intelligent life. If the race survives long enough to develop
through its' childhood to start exploring space and discovers the bea-
con left behind then this hypothetical spacefaring race would know it
was time to pay a return visit. If the beacon was never activated then
there would be no loss beyond a little bit of time and technology left
behind.
                        For considerations,
                            Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:21:05 GMT
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Chipster,

tlhIH no' Sop pom! Soh He' parHa'lam paSlogh.

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



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From: [e-mail] (KYLE CASSIDY)
Subject: crop circles
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are there any books out about those crop circles which were popping up in
europe?
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From: [e-mail] (Arbaline)
Subject: My "ufo" experience! :) (was Re: July 4, 1992 - )
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: "Shooting Stars" follow thought (like energy).
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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This post is mainly for John Winston. (Hi John!) The contents of this
article he is already familiar with since I've told him of these
experiences before in a couple of e-mail messages. Anyway, he agreed
with me that I should post them for all, so here goes. After all, I'm
the one that first started the "July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual
Independence Day" thread, in which I said that paranormal phenomena
and experiences are now the norm and no longer the exception or
anything to keep secret (which incidentally seems to be the subject
under which half of John's own articles are posted under.)

Anyway, some of the things that John posts may seem a little wild,
even to those of us accustomed to these sorts of things. Nevertheless,
IMHO, much of what he says does have merit and is true in an esoteric
sense, as evidenced by the following experience I had in the wee early
morning hours a month ago on Monday August 31.

A while back John posted an article telling people how they can get in
touch with and see a UFO, by personally summoning it. That is, look up
at the sky, raise your vibration, ask the extraterrestrials to show
themselves, and you will see a ship of theirs zoom by, which will look
like a shooting star. (This of course degenerated into that thread of
the arguments of whether a shooting star makes a curved path across
the sky.) Anyway so I went and tried this technique... and it
happened! Late that Sunday I was hacking on the computer, and that
very day I had read John's post about contacting the ETs, although I
didn't think about it then very much. I didn't get back home to my
rural area house until after 3:30am early Monday. This a very clear
night without any clouds, and I was clearly able to see the Pleiades
and Orion bright up in the sky. So, I took a walk in the clear, quiet
night out to our barn to look at the stars, when I suddenly thought of
John's post and decided to try it, or rather "just do it". I made a
decision to "raise my vibration", but I didn't *try* to do it, I just
did, and only spend about two seconds affirming it, rather than doing
any metaphysical formalities. Then, I made a thought like "Ok, show
yourselves.." and right then I immediately saw a "shooting star"!

Now, this "shooting star" happened *immediately* after I made that
thought, i.e. within a second, or at most two. It was also very
bright, brighter than most "shooting stars", and brighter than Jupiter
or Venus stretched out in a line. Also, it happened right in front of
my face, right where in the sky I was staring at at the time,
definitely not more than 10 degrees of arc off in any direction. As
for physical details, the "shooting star" occurred near the horizon,
and I was facing South; it went down and slightly toward the left even
closer to the horizon, and covered about 10 arc degrees in the sky.

The odds of such a thing happening are extremely rare. I'll try to
estimate the probability. Assume one shooting star per hour (generous
considering there were no meteor showers near August 31st of this
year). This was a very bright "shooting star" brighter than at least
75% of all meteors seen, so we can assume one bright shooting star
every 4 hours or 240 minutes. The odds of a bright "meteor" occuring
in a defined 2 second interval then are 1 in 7200. In addition, the
number of 10x10 degree patches of sky in half a celestial sphere is
slightly more than 200. So the odds of the "meteor" falling right
before your eyes are 1 in 200, and the total probability of the
occurance is 1 in 1,440,000. In addition, I can say that this is the
first and only time I've ever directly asked them to show themselves,
so the argument that I ask such things all the time therefore
eventually something exciting will happen when I ask is not valid.

As for the question of whether this "shooting star" I saw streak
across the sky was just a normal meteor, or was actually a UFO
responding to my request, is left for each person to decide for
themself. I would venture to say that this was possibly a Pleiadian
ship, due to several reasons: I had just been thinking of the Pleiades
and our spiritual cousins who come from there before the incident;
Such a playful "shooting star" activity is representative of the
impish things they are known to do, and is similar to other
experiences others and myself have had in other contexts; Finally the
Billy Meier Pleiadian case refers to a similar incident where Billy
was able to change the course and effect a Pleiadian vessel high up in
the atmosphere by willing it with his mind.

I personally think the whole incident is pretty cute. Rather than
formally landing in my back yard, which would be irrefutable "proof"
(for me at least) they are a little more gradual about it. Instead I
get weird "dreams" and OOBEs and the occasional physical experience
which gets one thinking. The is similar to the probable purpose of the
increasingly complex crop circles - to gradually get us thinking about
and accustomed to their presence without some landing which would
shock the daylights out of us (or at least many of us), and would be a
little more difficult for one to post about in this setting. After
all, this *could* just have been a neat coincidence, although as time
goes on, the experiences will get more and more real, until we make
the conclusions on our own. (And as for whether this incident is
repeatable or whether just the timing was right then for me, well,
that's a question for them to decide.)

Anyway, John made a vague reference to this incident in a post where
he said something like that "A person I'll call W.D.P. apparently was
able to make some contact." And on a related note, I'm also the
"person from Washington" John said that was almost blasted out of bed
after apparently connecting with his vibration. (BTW John, remember
that post where you were trying to make contact with Big Al by showing
yourself to him, and you said that "this time I'm going to blast you
out of bed with some elementals"? Hmm, maybe you sent them to me
inadvertently?)

One final note: When I told my local 11:11 group about the "shooting
star" experience, the response was like "Walter! You should have asked
them to beam you aboard!" Hmm... Next time... :)

-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail].      |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
|   "Who am I, What am I?  As I am, I am not.  But as we are, I AM.  And to   |
-   you my creation, My Perfect Love is your Perfect Freedom. And I will be   -
|   with you forever and ever, until the End, and then forever more." - GOD   |
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
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From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SEX with aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:10:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Lines: 36
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (SEAN MCNAIR) writes...
>     I recently had sex with an alien. The alien in question lives in my
>room. He is yurple in color (yellow with purple polkadots) and he emanates
>facts at me. For example, I know that he is from the planet xenon, and is
>rather small for his age. (600 yrs) He is just an adolescnt, as this species
>of animal (or I should say, alien intelligence) lives to be four thousand
>years of age. He weighs about ninety pounds. (I carried him to the scale) He
>does'nt come in any particular shape, he merely takes on the shape of his
>environment. (He can change shape at will) He doesn't seem to have many
>bones, just a jaw with sharp teeth. He likes to eat, on occasion. (about
>every two weeks he polishes off an entire jar of of peanut butter. He seems
>to prefer creamy jif as opposed to crunchy.)
>     The strange thing about this alien, other than the fact that he usually
>hangs out with me all the time, is that he is empathetic to all my desires,
>and that he is a doppleganger. For example, last night, I saw a television
>show that was all about me! It was a news show, and the newscasters kept
>saying things when I wasn't listening clearly about things I'd been doing,
>reporting secretly to the rest of the population about what I'd been up to!
>Then, during a commercial, the women started screaming about Tater Tots (tm)
>and a few Radioactive Tater Tots (tm) fell on the rug! It was then that I
>got some sexual feelings for a woman that I saw in the hospital earlier
>today. Then, the yurple (that's what I call him) changed into the woman I
>was seeing earlier, and we had sex. The odd thing about is that the yurple,
>I think, I'm not sure, bit off my penis and swallowed it! It grew back the
>next day, but now I'm not sure what to do about the yurple.
>
>                                 Gumby


                    Obviously too many qualudes...

======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face On Mars An Other Other Time
Date: 8 Oct 1992 20:05:15 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ed McCreary) writes:
=    The Mars Observer mission will carry an extremely high-resolution
=    camera, and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
=    question in a few years. In the meantime, speculation about the Face is
=    best carried on in the altnet group alt.alien.visitors, not sci.space or
=    sci.astro.

The above paragraph should now be amended to something like:

    The Mars Observer mission carries an extremely high-resolution (2m)
    camera, and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this
    question in a few months. In the meantime, speculation about the Face is
    best carried on in the altnet group alt.alien.visitors, not sci.space or
    sci.astro.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Date: 8 Oct 1992 22:12:45 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>The evidence sir is the photographs that were returned by the viking probe.
>There is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what the
>structure is, so we must go back & re-photograph, re-analyze, re-evaluate,
>etc. Most skeptics say "What for, it's just a clump of eroded rock"

There never WILL be evidence enough to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" what
the structure is unless we actually land there and check it out up close.
After the MO sends back pictures showing it to be merely a natural formation,
I'm sure there will be true believers out there (probably including Hoagland)
who will claim either:
    1)  It was actually artificial, but weathering over the milennia has
        worn it down to the point where it now looks natural;
and/or    2)  It's camoflaged.

>That Bobby my boy is what I am talking about.

You're talking about proving a negative.  See the FAQ for a detailed
description of why your bullshit is so unreasonable. There's no way in hell
that it can be proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt" via photographs that the
feature is natural. Of course, it's also impossible to prove "beyond a shadow
of a doubt" that there do not exist nine reindeer on this world that are
capable of flying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Erik Radmall)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 8 Oct 92 12:45:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Erik Radmall)
Organization: Xerox
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Scott Drellishak) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
|> )Robert,[you write]
|> )>I'm typing as s-l-o-w-l-y as I can.  You are still not getting it.  Try
|> )>to pay attention this time:
|> )>"out & out denial" is NOT "the mindset of the skeptic".  The mindset
|> )>of the skeptic is "That's an astonishing claim, what is the evidence
|> )>for it?"
|> )
|> )The evidence sir is the photographs that were returned by the viking probe.
|> )There is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what the
|> )structure is, so we must go back & re-photograph, re-analyze, re-evaluate,
|> )etc. Most skeptics say "What for, it's just a clump of eroded rock"
|>

 [stuff deleted]

|>
|> But wait.  We *never* have perfect information -- there is always
|> doubt.  Science is a practice of successive best guesses.  At the
|> moment, as far as I know, the evidence isn't strong enough to support
|> the alien artifact hypothesis, so the best guess is, it's a rock.  If
|> new photographs show scaffolding, then this best guess may change.
|>
|> )Human nature is a labrynth that is as boundless & as confounding as the
|> )universe as we know it. Nuff said!!!
|> )
|> )Rod

In the "Weekly Globe", the "face" was definitively proved to be that of none
other than Pee-Wee Herman. In a tag-along article, the Russian probe had a REAL
photo of a B-17 bomber lodged in a Martian crater. In a subsequent shot a few
months later, the bomber had mysteriously "vanished." This special issue of a focus
on Mars also included details on the fate of the Avengers(?) that vanished into
the Bermuda Triangle. Sources for the "Globe" say they are even now flying in an
orbit around Mars. Hey, this publication solves every mystery known to man. My
only thought is that it is TRULY God inspired. Hey you folks at the "Globe", keep
up the good work - and to HELL with these skeptics! Sign me up for a life-long
subscription, and while you're at it, please pledge $10,000 on my behalf to
BOB TILTON. Thank you.

|>
|> word.
|>
|> Scott
|> --
|> /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|> | Scott Drellishak   [e-mail]                          |
|> |                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
|> \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Erik Radmall                    | Xerox Corp.
[e-mail]    | Knowledge-Based Systems Competency Center
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Carl is an abrasive clown.
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:27:11 GMT
Lines: 49

>The evidence sir is the photographs that were returned by the viking
probe.
>There is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what the
>structure is, so we must go back & re-photograph, re-analyze,
re-evaluate,
>etc. Most skeptics say "What for, it's just a clump of eroded rock"

>>There never WILL be evidence enough to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt"
what
>>the structure is unless we actually land there and check it out up close.
>>After the MO sends back pictures showing it to be merely a natural
formation,
>>I'm sure there will be true believers out there (probably including
Hoagland)
>>who will claim either:
>>    1)  It was actually artificial, but weathering over the milennia has
>>        worn it down to the point where it now looks natural;
>>and/or    2)  It's camoflaged.

>That Bobby my boy is what I am talking about.

>>You're talking about proving a negative.  See the FAQ for a detailed
>>description of why your bullshit is so unreasonable. There's no way in
hell
>>that it can be proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt" via photographs that
the
>>feature is natural. Of course, it's also impossible to prove "beyond a
shadow
>>of a doubt" that there do not exist nine reindeer on this world that are
>>capable of flying.


Carl,

NEVER say NEVER. Denial denial denial......we've seen this before Carl.
Your blocking Carl. What are you afraid of Carl? Soh nuch!!!!

Laughing all the way to Tahoe...............Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 92 18:09:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]><1992Sep25.175939.15686@tellab5
 .tellabs.com> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Folks: It looks like the Ley Line selection got taken off and
I consider that to be a good deal because I was running out of Ley
Line related material. I will now put down a litte bit of material
about the underground city in death valley and then get on the other
material.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 92 18:11:53 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]><1992Sep25.175939.15686@tellab5
 .tellabs.com> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 31

1>
Dear Ruins People:
  In the last week I've been getting more information in on the underground
city in Death Valley. One of the readers of this Net says that he works
within 10 miles of Wingate Pass on a contract with the Navy. Now if you
remember Wingate Pass is the place where the prospector was in the old mine
and fell into the tunnel that was over 20 miles long.  We have a little bad
news from this person.  He says that the Navy claims this area for their own
and has guards that attempt to keep people out of the area.  If these guards
are anyway like the guards that patrol Groom Lake then they are meaner that
a bunch of junkyard dogs. I used to be in the Navy myself.  At Groom Lake
they will stop you at gun point, ask what your secret clearance is and when
you show it they will tell that it's not nearly high enough. Senator
Goldwater was not even allowed into some of these areas in the past. After
threatening you they will cuss you out and threaten you with everything in
the book. At Groom Lake they have been known to run you off the road with a
helicopter. It seems like everytime I plan to go somewhere to look for space
people the Navy is there. I know they feel that they are just doing their
job.
  I got a call from Robert Stanley and he says that a person has told him
about another ruins of an ancient city and it's near Monterey, Calif.  I'll
keep you all informed.
John Winston.

e says that the Navy claims this area for their own and has guards that
attempt to keep people out of the area.  If the

,xHxvxxx
,<
0Roman 10cpi not nearly high enough. Senator Goldwater was not even
alloweedd in these areas in the past. After threateni
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 92 18:45:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Everybody: My thanks to WDP for telling his story. It took a lot
of guts to do that. I hope that others will feel more at ease in telling
what they think. I misspelled the word primordial in a past posting. I
spelled it with an E.  I'm sure glad I caught it before RA had a chance
to jump on me.  Things are looking good.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  8 Oct 92 19:23:15 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
Lines: 14

Dear Fellow Truth Seekers: It is my purpose to tell you what I know
and have learned about Bigfoot otherwise known as Sasquatch.
  The first I heard about BF (Bigfoot) came in the form of a story
told to me by my teacher and Guru, Merele Fagot. It seemed that a
person had reported that he had been feeding a hairy creature in his
backyard of his ranch in one of the NW states of the USA.  This thing
was the normal 8 feet tall 650 lbs. of walking stalking muscle. A lady
reporter had enlisted the services of a psychic lady and they came in
contact with the BF in the rancher's backyard. The BF immediately
by telepathy said to the telepathic lady, "Why do you people want to
hurt me?"  The lady then said by telepathy, "What do you mean you big
lug? I couldn't hurt you if I tried."  The BF then told his story.
End of Part 1.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!ames!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a4445
From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:56:53 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 18

John Winston writes:
>Dear Astral Folk: Boy, last night's OOBE train wound up being a rough
>one. I wound up in the lower astral soup (like premordial soup the
>people from NASA always are talking about) thinking about a dog running in
>the wrong direction with no head. Probubly my spirit was out doing
>all sorts of good stuff though. I got the feeling that all this
>information that is in this collection should be preserved for posterity
>some way. Everybody had a good time on the OOBE train. A bunch of them
>showed up at my house last night. One of these days we'll have to get
>this thing all organized but then it would not be as much fun.
>John Winston.
Well, shoot I got on the train but I went to bed so late I must have caught
the next one because I ended up in the primordial soup instead of the
premordial one.  Lots of anchovies in it.  It was mostly deserted but I
caught a supernova and the first twitchings of organic glop on the fifth
planet from Bernard's star.  All in alpretty cosmic.  .  Next time, John, let
us know from which platform the OOBE WAN KENOBE train leaves.  I'd hate to
end up in the wrong past life. =:0  Colleen
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU!Xenon.Stanford.EDU!jek
From: [e-mail] (James Kittock)
Subject: Re: jerky
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: everything
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 10:24:33 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Vincent Procacci) writes:
>I don't know about you but I think the new Star Trek is sooo much
>better than the old Star Trek, and another thing is that I don't have
>to talk to you jerky.

Look, jerky, if you don't like it, why don't you take a long
stemmed rose and shove it right up your ass, stem and all, jerky!
Brent Weir doesn't fuck with you, jerko!

;-)
--
James Kittock -- 1st Year PhD Student, Computer Science, Stanford -- Duke '92
      "What the world needs now is another folk singer,
         like I need a hole in my head."  -- Cracker
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kevin Randle Comes to Denver
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 92 03:22:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 91


                      FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
                 FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT:

                         Michael Corbin
                           Deryl Bair
                           MICAP, Inc.
                         [phone]

      AUTHOR OF "UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL" TO LECTURE IN DENVER

                 TITLE:  "EYEWITNESSES REVISITED"
            DATE:  Thursday, October 29th in Boulder
                 Friday, October 30th in Denver

                         BOULDER LOCATION:
                Baseline Middle School Auditorium
                       20th & Baseline Road

                         DENVER LOCATION:
               Super 8 Hotel and Conference Center
                  I-25 and Speer Blvd in Denver

    TIMES:     7:30 PM BOTH LOCATIONS (DOORS OPEN AT 7:00 PM)

TICKETS:   $8.00 ADVANCE,  $10.00 AT DOOR FOR MICAP MEMBERS
           $10.00 ADVANCE, $12.50 AT DOOR FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC

           TICKETS CAN BE PURCHASED AT THE DENVER TICKET BUS ON
           ON THE 16TH STREET MALL (16TH & CURTIS) UP TO THE
           DATE OF THE EVENT.  CALL [phone] FOR MORE INFO.

On July 8, 1947, Colonel William Blanchard--the commanding officer of
the 509th Bomb Group in Roswell, New Mexico--officially announced to the
world that the U.S. Army had "captured a flying saucer."

Within hours, the story was quashed by Brigadier General Roger M. Ramey,
commander of the Eighth Air Force in Fort Worth, Texas, who told the
press that the reported "flying saucer" was nothing more than the
scattered remains of a military target balloon.  Ramey claimed that the
officers of the 509th had been caught up in the excitement of the moment
and simply misidentified the debris.

Ramey's explanation was the last word on the Roswell flying saucer until
1978, when Jesse Marcel, a former intelligence officer of the 509th,
revealed that he was the man who had picked up the debris.  Marcel said,
"I was certain ... that it was not a weather balloon, not an aircraft,
nor a missile.  It was something else ... we didn't know what it was."

The intensive investigation that exploded the Roswell coverup was
conducted by Donald R. Schmitt, Director of Special Investigations for
the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, and Kevin D. Randle, a former
Air Force intelligence officer.  For more than two years they travelled
across the country and interviewed over three hundred witnesses in order
to discover the truth about the crash at Roswell.  Their conclusion,
reported in their recent book UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL, is that a vehicle of
extraterrestrial manufacture did indeed crash in the New Mexico desert
in 1947, just as the Army had originally claimed.

This month, MICAP, Inc., an international UFO research organization
headquartered in the Denver area, will feature Roswell investigator
Kevin Randle at a pair of public lectures to be held in Boulder and
Denver.  This illustrated presentation will reveal Randle & Schmitt's
latest findings in the ongoing investigation of the Roswell crash.
Included for the first time will be a rare audio recording of the actual
1947 radio broadcast announcing the recovery of a flying saucer near
Roswell.

Kevin D. Randle is a professional investigative journalist with previous
training in military intelligence.  He has been studying the UFO
phenomenon for more than twenty years and has published three books and
more than fifty magazine articles on the subject.  He was one of the
first persons outside the government to examine the files of Project
Blue Book, the official U.S. Air Force investigation of UFOs.  As a
former member of APRO (the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization), and
currently as a special investigator for CUFOS (the J. Allen Hynek Center
for UFO Studies), he has researched UFO landing-trace reports, occupant
sightings, and abduction cases.  His two previous books--THE OCTOBER
SCENARIO and THE UFO CASEBOOK--established him as one of the premier
authors in the field.  His latest work, UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL, was co-
authored with Donald Schmitt and published last year by Avon Books.

Kevin Randle regularly appears on radio and television, and has been
featured on NBC's UNSOLVED MYSTERIES.  He  will be available for
interviews in the Denver/Boulder area on October 28th and 29th.  Contact
Michael Corbin at [phone] to make arrangements.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  9 Oct 92 06:11:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Big Foot Lovers: It's good to see that my posting did come
through OK. You can always tell if it is me by seeing if I make a
mistake (I usually do). Big Foot is most of the time spelled as two
words. Anyway I be trying to put down some serious posting about the
subject in the future in a humerous way.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12060 alt.alien.visitors:10038 sci.skeptic:32272
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  9 Oct 92 06:41:39 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Everbody: I was asked what happened on my last trip to Mt. Shasta.
I went around and collected a bunch of free tree logs to do a little
work on our summer housing unit that my wife and I are building. I
made a trip over to Bunny Flats , Sand Flats and Panther Meadows to look
for a person who is tall, has a beard and drives a white truck. Some
people from the Solar Cross Organization were contacted by this person
on two occasions and taught a lot of things. He is from the inside of
Mt. Shasta. I didn't have the pleasure of meeting him. We also prepared
our property and housing unit for winter. It sometimes snows about
125 inches of snow on the top of Mt. Shasta.
John  Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!scifi!watson!pilatus.zurich.ibm.com!jec
From: [e-mail] (Jean Cherbonnier)
Subject: Ezekiel's Space Ship
Sender: @watson.ibm.com
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 08:41:06 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Jean Cherbonnier)
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Lines: 10


I would like to get some information on a chapter in the Bible (Old Testament)
where Ezekiel describes what sounds like the arrival of a space ship and
of several alien creatures. The description is so amazing that one could
really beleive he witnesses such an event.

Thanks.

J. Cherbonnier
[e-mail]
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail] (Hail Eris)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:26:14 GMT
Lines: 20


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes...
>>The evidence sir is the photographs that were returned by the viking
>probe.
>>There is not enough evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what the
>>structure is, so we must go back & re-photograph, re-analyze,
>re-evaluate,
>>etc. Most skeptics say "What for, it's just a clump of eroded rock"
>
>>>There never WILL be evidence enough to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt"
>what
>>>the structure is unless we actually land there and check it out up close

Sure there will be enough evidence.

If they find multiple faces and other structures laid out in distinct
patterns then that's proof as far as I'm concerned.


You guys really would be in denial to claim that kind of artifact as 'natural'
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12066 alt.alien.visitors:10041 alt.paranormal:5880
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: My "ufo" experience! :) (was Re: July 4, 1992 - )
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:55:31 GMT
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes in part:
|> [...] I made a
|> decision to "raise my vibration", but I didn't *try* to do it, I just
|> did, and only spend about two seconds affirming it, rather than doing
|> any metaphysical formalities. Then, I made a thought like "Ok, show
|> yourselves.." and right then I immediately saw a "shooting star"!

Did you ever get it to happen a second time?
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gods Trapped in Illusion-Pleiadians16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  9 Oct 92 08:01:57 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 486


Here is The Pleiadian article from issue 16 of Connecting Link Magazine.  I
have number 17 ready to be scanned.  Since The Editor of Connecting Link
Magazine and Barbara Marciniak have give me permission to post these.  It
is alright to spread this around.  So if anyone would like a copy of all 17
articles in one big email file contact me by email.

BTW, The Pleiadians' first book, The Bringers of the Dawn: Teachings from
the Pleiadians, is now  available from Bear & Co. Publishers.

Copyright by Barbara Marciniak ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

A Conversation With The Pleiadians

Gods Trapped in Illusion

Welcome, indeed, to an opportunity to expand your consciousness, to an
opportunity to demonstrate your cleverness, an opportunity to read
energies. This evening's discussion is going to be a continuation of the
chronicles of those on assignment out on the fringes of certain galactic
systems. These chronicles concern the gods trapped in illusion. Not just
the gods that operate your planet. You, yourselves, as evolving gods.

We remind you that at this time there is incredible galactic identity
wishing to emerge throughout the identities of yourselves. This galactic
understanding of mankind is something that you are trained to take on. As
members of the Family of Light you are more than human, you are part of an
intergalactic species that resonates with a certain type of life
fulfillment or employment. That employment is moving into systems of
thought, systems of consciousness, established systems, and changing them.
Wherever you go you bring change. You are members of the Family of Light
and, as we have said to you often enough, light needs information. You are
all fascinated with gathering data about unknown portions of your world and
yourselves. You want to uncover those mysteries. It is part of your nature.
As members of Family of Light you are for hire, you are available to
travel, to go into different systems of existence and to take on the native
disguise and to act as if you are a native born and bred, evolving through.
Accept [that] you are in disguise, you are on assignment. You come not to
just evolve through a system, to learn from it, you come to bust it open,
to change it. A systems buster, that is what you are.

QUESTION: You have repeatedly mentioned that earth is a place that beings
come and train themselves to become a god. One of the realizations I've
made recently is when you tie this into what the creator gods have done,
now I understand that you come to earth to learn how to be a creator god,
to work with creation and this is the place where we learn our integrity
about when and how we create life.

PLEIADIANS: Yes. That is very good. And the simplest part of that training
is to begin to act as if you do. Do you understand that? Act as if you do
create your own reality. Acting as if gives you a commitment of intention.
You see, there are so many things we can say here, it is difficult. We
could speak all evening long on just this one subject because there are
those who learn from watching you learn. Then there are those who become so
fascinated with certain human learning processes that the humans give over
their power to certain energies and then there is learning on many, many
levels. A long time ago we said to you that the humans in some situations
are likened unto playthings of the gods. A long time ago we said this. We
are choosing our words carefully here because we want you to really expand
your picture. Also we want you all to know that you are in disguise as
human. If you can study the earth knowing that you are in disguise as human
it will give you a certain removal from the anguish or the emotional
sucking that the planet is now going through, the emotional pain, the
birthing process.

QUESTION: Are we as members of the Family of Light on some level creator
gods in disguise working within our own experiment?

PLEIADIANS: This earth has been an experiment and it has been an experiment
in biological creation, in genetics. A long time ago we said to you that
the earth was designed to be an Intergalactic Exchange Center for
information. It can sound like the whole world is made up of one file box
after another. Can you picture a metallic world filled with file boxes and
that is the earth as a center of information? Or can you picture an earth
that is covered by computers as one comes and sits in a computer terminal
and gets dataized by computer. That is another way of having an
Intergalactic Exchange Center. However, those of you who have listened to
what we have been sharing with you know that we have stated that when this
project was put together for its own purposes that the call went out and
many forms of sentient life donated their DNA. Does DNA make up file
cabinets? Does DNA make up computers? Or does DNA make up humans and
animals and plants?

The Intergalactic Exchange Center for information was to be what was called
the Living Library. One would come onto the earth and one could plunge into
all of the experiences of those who participated by giving their life force
to create a living life force here to be experienced. Knowledge would be
stored genetically within all things. Remember we said that your creator
gods were master geneticists? Remember when we spoke of the returning
Reptilians and said that they are master geneticists as well? You have been
led from the truth as to how information is truly experienced.

Recently we talked about the Adam and Eve chronicles and how knowledge was
given to them and how knowledge was stored alive. Alive in the fruit that
they ingested and through eating a substance they attained knowledge. Does
that give you some idea perhaps of what this place is?

The original human was coded in a certain way to be a vehicle of
experience, a vehicle that could be occupied. Throughout earth's history
there have been many battles among the creator gods for ownership of this
place. As we have said to you, about 300,000 years ago one of the more
recent battles took place and certain energies have claimed ownership of
this territory since that time. Since that time these that are master
geneticists have been able with their incredible knowledge of that
particular science to control the frequency of evolution on this planet.
You as members of the Family of Light are sent here to change the frequency
of the planet. It is quite simple. That is what your purpose basically is.
You come as humans, yet you are not just humans. You came from your future
into earth's past. Feel that for a moment. You have heard us say often
enough that we come into your present, which is from our point of view
past, to make changes, to affect probable changes. You do the same.

You all feel that you were born and that you have had many past lives. We
want you to picture a scenario where there is a plague that overruns the
humans in this free-will zone and there is tremendous tyranny and frequency
control, where there is fear and chaos taking over this universe. Quite
imaginable. We want you to understand that technology can become so
far-fetched that those existing in a time period that are besieged,
beleaguered with this kind of frequency, can go back hundreds of thousands
of years to points in time in order to change an existing present. From
those time periods certain energies can change the chronicles of their own
history.

You were sent from a point in the far distant future back through your past
in order to prepare for a time when your talents could be utilized, when
your abilities to sift through systems and change systems instantly could
be manifest, could be put to work. This is some of what you are doing.

QUESTION: I've been having dreams lately about shedding my skin. In the
dream I'm not a reptile, I'm human. And when the skin is shed there is
nothing there but light.

PLEIADIANS: You are a systems buster. That is what your card says. "Systems
Buster. Available for intergalactic systems altering. Travel with family
and have many friends. Reliable, efficient and adventurous work only." So,
you and your buddies were called to go and bust a system. What does that
mean, bust a system? It means that electromagnetically if a system is
operating with 100 volts and they want to change the system to a million
volts you must learn to carry a million volts in a hundred volt body. That
is what a systems buster is. As a systems buster you are capable of
carrying any kind of energy because you are a certain species of creator.

The Original Planners, those whose project this earth was originally, set
out to change what was going on here and to bring the Original Plan back
into action. As all systems evolve and all forms of consciousness evolve,
change is best when it comes from the inside rather than the outside. As
members of the Family of Light you specialize in infiltrating systems in
disguise of the natives. You live lives just like the natives and then when
the time is ripe you receive the voltage and you transform yourself, still
looking just like a native. Then you broadcast a new frequency because
there are multitudes of you there to catch the prevailing frequency and you
keep a gridwork activated amongst yourselves as you occupy the system, of
course, in disguise, and you begin to change the whole system by changing
the frequency in yourselves.

In order to understand the system you come from the future back into the
past of the system evolving forward up until the time that you are ripe.
What you are recalling are realities where you simultaneously exist, where
you are simultaneously dealing with another version of the system. As
systems busters and members of the Family of Light you incarnate not just
into the human realm. As you are evolving here on this earth, striving to
understand your identity and to incorporate this inner knowing with a life
in disguise of a human there are portions of yourself working in many other
realities doing the same thing and your world of dreams is the doorway
through which you can very readily access this kind of experience.

Those of you who are courageous and those of you who are taking the sharp
edges off of your reality, are beginning to have safe memory of other
aspects of yourself. When you begin to realize how grandiose the plan is
for the dimensional changes of this place you will realize that operating
purely from the stance of a human would be ineffective. As a mere human
there would not be enough comprehension, enough energy to pull off what is
going to be pulled off on this planet. So you are infiltrating many
different realities at this time with a very parallel consciousness. You
are changing many realities and you are beginning to awaken into them.

QUESTION: A lot of us are going through a lot of emotional upheaval at the
moment. Can you speak to us about the value of emotions?

PLEIADIANS: When you have emotion inside the physical body there are
chemical reactions that take place. When you do not use the emotions there
is a different route that one may access. The emotions release hormones,
enzymes, many other things, and these begin to have a catalytic effect upon
one another. When the light encoded filaments, those tiny gossamer threads
that carry all the data of your history, begin to be lined up with the
proper emotion, one can move through memories into other realities. Emotion
is very, very necessary. Many of you have made the mistake of not wanting
to deal with emotion. It is one of your biggest fears, getting steeped into
something very emotional and then what control do you have? You are all
going to have to learn that there is a lot that you can discover by giving
up control. Feeling very deeply about someone or something can catapult you
into a higher memory of your identity. Be aware of this please.

QUESTION: You have recommended that a lot of us get in touch with these
emotions and go through the emotional clearing, clearing the emotional
body. If we can really get in touch with our early childhood emotions or
those things that were traumatic, hard and painful, to me it is preparing
for the meeting of the multidimensional selves which may have pain or
trauma. Having the courage to feel everything prepares us for what is to
come.

PLEIADIANS: If there is anything that you all need at this time to
cultivate for yourselves it is the courage to feel, the courage to step
forward in emotional identity with other versions of yourselves that maybe
you don't really understand. That is why those of you who have had bodywork
this year have definitely felt the results of it. Those of you who are
wondering what to do next for yourselves, go have your body adjusted, have
it worked upon, have it aligned, have different work done. Open what you
are holding so tightly inside so that you can feel a little more
vulnerable. One of the things that will happen for all of you is that your
physiology is literally going to change as you begin to let go of what you
have held onto in order to protect yourself. That is a big one. Remember we
said to you, as members of the Family of Light you come in disguise of
humans and you disguise from yourselves that you are not human so that you
can understand the human dilemma, so that you can understand the effects of
frequency control.

What does this mean, the effects of frequency control? We have said that
300,000 years ago when certain creator gods who are Reptilian by nature
raided this reality and took it over, they changed the existing DNA of some
of the humans that they gathered up for their experimentations. Of course,
you must know that there are many civilizations that existed prior to this
one. What occurred was that the human was rearranged and was left with what
you know as the double helix. Then many instigative energies were put on
this planet to make certain that with this double strand of information the
humans would basically work through struggle and survival and that very
little high achievement would come about and if it did it came about for a
very short period of time. As members of the Family of Light, by changing
the DNA you make it impossible for that scenario to continue to exist.

QUESTION: When you said "gods trapped in illusion," who are the gods? Are
they us?

PLEIADIANS: To some extent they are you. Though we want you to understand
that your Reptilian gods are trapped in illusion. Can you understand how
vast everything is? Can you understand what a big ball game is going on?
These creator gods that, yes, you have worshiped, and, yes, they are
technologically far superior to anything you can conceive of, so what? They
have forgotten who their gods are. They are gods lost or trapped in
illusion. In the same way that they have controlled your frequency and made
a controlled world for you and toyed and played with your world and set up
one scenario after another and used frequency modulation to their own
benefit to create certain broadcasts from the humans and direct these out
of portals I into space for whatever nourishment or whatever use they have
for this energy Remember consciousness is energy. Consciousness is in all
things. Remember that your planet has been controlled by a society that has
limited you and created chaos and fear and war and famine and man against
man. That has been the history of the last 300,000 years. It has been man
against man and that creates a certain fear amongst the natives. They
broadcast it out. Collectively the planet broadcasts energy that these
creator gods use. As members of the Family of Light you have come in to
change the predominant frequency that is broadcast by the natives. You have
come to be a living inspiration to show them how to act contrary to what
they have been taught.

QUESTION: One of the things that I have come to realize is that we create
our own reality, however, we also create our own illusions. Then, there is
the controversy what is reality and what is illusion? I haven't tied it all
together yet, but there is something that you said about being trapped in
illusion .

PLEIADIANS: Trapped in illusion. Yes, because if you can understand that
just as those of you who are beginning to stretch your consciousness
realize that the planet itself it trapped in false knowledge, is trapped in
a false identity of what it is and you see how the humans are controlled by
certain individuals, you must understand that the creator gods are trapped
as well. They trapped themselves just as the humans trapped themselves. It
looks as if the Lizzies trapped the humans, doesn't it? Remember, humans
create their own reality. So, in actuality, the humans created being
trapped and having genetic manipulation and DNA rearrangement by the
Lizzies. Remember, everything that you create you experience. So they began
their own version of it in their own lives and did not even know it. They
are the gods trapped in illusion.

QUESTION: You have talked about the importance of holding the frequency of
light and I don't quite understand.

PLEIADIANS: You have agreed to come in and to hold a certain amount of
current, electromagnetic energy. When a human vehicle is souped-up with a
certain amount of electromagnetic energy, of course, the whole vehicle
operates very differently. As you have agreed to receive and to keep
frequency by having a certain amount of electromagnetic energy continuously
evolving within you, you change your own voltage, you change your own
awareness in the process. By beginning to hold this frequency and keep it
consistently, it means that eventually 100% of the time no matter what the
situation is you will believe you create your own reality no matter what it
looks like. That is a Keeper of Frequency. Frequency is consciousness. It
is awareness. It is how you impact what is around you.

We have suggested to you from the very beginning to live with and get used
to the idea that you create your experience, that you design it, that you
are in charge of it. It is part of what you are led to believe on this
planet, that you have nothing to do with it. That is part of the robbing of
your own energy. Someone teaches you that you are not in charge and you buy
it and you operate with a sense of powerlessness. "I am not in charge of my
life. I have nothing to do with what happens to me. It is all out of my
hands." That is an incredible tyranny. It is exactly the opposite of how
this planet operates.

QUESTION: Do your emotions affect holding your frequency? For instance, if
you're upset or angry can you still maintain your frequency?

PLEIADIANS: It depends. When you become angry or upset, are you becoming
angry and upset because you feel that someone did something to you or are
you becoming angry and upset because once again you created a duplication
of a situation to teach yourself because you have not gotten it?

QUESTION: If you look at anger as simply another expression of emotion
without judging it, does it affect holding the frequency?

PLEIADIANS: Absolutely it affects holding the frequency. The frequency we
are talking about that you are to bring to the planet is one of, I created
it, I did it, I am in charge, I can undo it, I can heal, etc. Do you
understand? You are bringing the frequency of potentiality. As Keepers of
Frequency it is your assignment to consistently live like that, not to talk
one way and to live another. That is when you are not a Keeper of
Frequency. When you act angry and upset and when you are upset at yourself
for acting angry and upset, you are acting victimized because you did
something that you did not want to do and you are not being a Keeper of
Frequency. Absolutely not. What are you showing everyone else? What
liberation are you showing others? A Keeper of Frequency lives life in such
a way that you begin to show others how you rise above every situation
because you are able to keep what you know in the forefront of your
mind that you create and no matter what things look like you are able to
create with joy because you find, even in the anger, that what you create
leads you somewhere.

QUESTION: So within holding and keeping the frequency is feeling as well,
emotions without judging them.

PLEIADIANS: Without feeling disempowered or powerless. Usually when you are
angry, you are angry because you feel that you had nothing to do with what
occurred. Think back on this. There is no point in feeling angry with
yourself. If you make the agreement with yourself that your self will
always create one opportunity after another for a good adventure and a good
time, if you live your life that way then you must trust that everything
that you create is along that plan. It is being consistent with what you
know.

We will go a little bit futuristic for you. Every human emits a certain
frequency. We like to call it your song. It is your tune. In this
controlled world, the frequency control has been set and you have been
reminded to be fearful over and over again. When you were growing up your
mother would say, "Don't stay out late," or whatever. You would have
something said to you to put you into a vibrational frequency that could
teeter on worry, fear, confusion, etc. Think about it. "Buckle up your seat
belt, you are going to get into an accident." "You must take your
vitamins." "You must have flu shots." All of these things, everything has
been based, your whole society, on an underlying current that is not
comfort. Your underlying current on this planet is not, "Hey, everything is
cool." That is not what you have been taught.

When you learn to modulate and control the frequency that you broadcast and
you begin to affect the whole planet with that, the planet begins to come
into its own ownership. You are learning that there are patterns of
behavior within individuals that are quite common. As you begin to
recognize patterns and take them as global patterns rather than individual
patterns, you will be able to do emotional healing for the planet while
coming into a realization of the why of certain things from a higher order,
from a higher tune and you will be able to transmute many things on the
planet because you will recognize the need of the planet, not just the
individual. If you take things personally then you have hurt feelings. And
when you have hurt feelings you are not a Keeper of Frequency because then
you act as if everything isn't fine. We want you to see the divine order,
the divine nonchalance, the perfection within all things. So, you may
notice how you feel and you may only feel it for a second or two and say,
"That is interesting. I feel this way and yet my higher self knows what
this is about," so that you are able to transmute. By feeling powerless you
have an idea how most of the planet feels all of the time. Do you follow
this? All of you are so ready to make pronouncements on what you
experience. You are to look at events as events and to see what comes of
them. Always look at every event as opportunity.

It will become so essential at some point for you to know who is a Keeper
of Frequency and who is not because there will come a time when you will be
able to transmit knowledge quite easily. Some of you are already able to do
this to a mild degree. When you can transmit knowledge you will want to
know that the other person is consistent in their behavior and that their
emotions do not run amok with them. Because if they are not consistent and
if they are able to get lost in emotional dramas you will not be able to
link with them. It will be like holding hands with a weak link. The times
will come when you will want to count on who is a Keeper of Frequency and
who is not because your life and the lives of many will depend upon the
stability and the consistency of those that you can look to. It will make a
big difference.

QUESTION: We create our own reality and this planet is filled with
information. If we think something, it is. Does this have something to do
with how the Lizzies got enmeshed or trapped here?

PLEIADIANS: They got trapped here, yes. They are trapped in illusion. They
don't really know what they got stuck in. You are hitting on something here
though you must go further with

QUESTION: It makes me think that you have to be really responsible for
everything you say and everything you think because they turn into the
stone and bone of earth and affects everybody else.

PLEIADIANS: The earth was formed for a certain purpose, an Intergalactic
Exchange Center for Information. This Exchange Center for Information is
not the only one. There are a series of these Exchange Centers that make up
a gridwork that unifies your

local universe together. This gridwork creates a living link of the Living
Libraries. As systems busters you are operating in the parallel worlds at
this time that are part of this gridwork. What has occurred in one probable
future is a tremendous tyranny that exists over this local universe and the
information systems have been vastly shut down. There is a stalling of your
universe. Your universe has become so choked that it is stalling itself on
life.

Through frequency modulation, the controlling of frequency, there has been
an energy that has taken over many of these Information Centers and life
information, everything as you know it, in your future is coming to a halt.
In the future that we come from it is quite disturbing. We are members of
the Family of Light in the same way that you are. We have been assigned to
go to work with you in our past, in your present, to alter the far-reaching
future by changing events where they first began and where they could be
meaningfully changed in the past from our present. In your present.

QUESTION: Will our present change our past?

PLEIADIANS: Yes. Listen to these words very carefully. You will change the
past by making a new past. Not necessarily by eradicating an old past. Do
you understand? So that a new road, a new probability comes to be.
Everything that exists exists. We want to create a new avenue of choice.
Being that you are systems busters, you are experts on bringing choice into
systems. You go into systems where the choice has been limited. You allow
the choice of a different potential. You are here to bring a potential of
cooperation and harmony. That in itself is in complete opposition to the
future, the future that we are assigned to create an alternate probability
around.

Understand that where you are going to go is going to be most interesting.
We have been very clever in the way that we have assisted your evolving
consciousness. We have purposely set this up so that you discover for
yourselves your own truth so that you will have a myriad of experiences to
rely on for yourselves, so that you can have a family to look around at and
to realize none of you ever have to be alone. And we have created an arena
where you have permission to live your light, to finally come out from the
deepest portion of your being and shine with who you have always known that
you are.

The assignment continues, our task continues. Your task is vastly
accelerated. Your work, all of yours, will go more inside of yourselves.
The days of ongoing outside gatherings are at an end. The energy,
everything that you seek, comes from spending time with yourselves. Those
of you who are making the greatest leaps and the greatest accelerations are
making the deepest commitment to have your bodies altered, to consciously
change your speech patterns, your thinking patterns, and to begin to go
within, into quiet time, and to begin to hear what is being broadcast to
you. You are all receiving the data. The problem is that you will not
consistently accredit yourself with what you know. It is this that we
constantly push you towards.

The benefits and the rewards that we have received from this are
multitudinous. What you teach us is invaluable. You are showing us
something, far more than you can ever realize. In your innocence and in
your trust you emit a frequency that we utilize to beam into the future and
we show something to those in our future that you in your now gift them
without even realizing. You are quite noble. In many worlds you are quite
famous. Some day you will know what that means.

This article was excerpted from the tape entitled "Gods Trapped in
Illusion. " For further enlightenment on this topic, the entire tape is
available by mail order for $14.98 (plus s/h).

[phone]. Or, see tape pages to order.

The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star system
the Pleiades. They call themselves our ancient family because many of us
came here from the Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth.
The Pleiadians are here as ambassadors to help Earth through her transition
from the third dimension and to assist each of us in our personal endeavors
of awakening, remembering and knowing.

Barbara J. Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from North
Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. Barbara has channeled at various
Expos and for groups across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and
Japan.

You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections, P. O. Box 6521, Raleigh, NC
27628.

For information on applying the Pleiadian teachings and oxygenation through
BreathWork email or call [e-mail] or 408-865-1768.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!cjr6495
From: [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris))
Subject: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:50:30 GMT
Lines: 42


There was a request for more info on what I see in auras...

Q:  Can you see colours?

A:  Not in the sense that we visualy see them.  When you think about something
    and you "see" it in your mind, you are not really seeing the image.  It is
    just there.  To put it into computer terms, I am looking at the equivalent
    of source code in a gif, not the actual picture.

Q:  Can you get readings on their moods/feelings?

A:  Yes and no.  I can "see" their tension and such and the different emotional
    responses they feel by looking at the way the aura is behaving.  I also can
    do a similar thing just by reading body language.  There is nothing
    mystical about it.

Q:  Can you tell if they have lost money or whatever?

A:  That is a form of telepathy.  I am not a skilled telepath.  I do not have a
    reliable talent as far as that goes.  I can only tell that they are tense
    about something and from their conversation, I can pick things out to
    figure out what.

Q:  Is this "sight" restricted to humans?

A:  No.  All things create an aura of some kind.  I tend to think that it is
    mearly a residual energy that is being released at a wavelength near that
    of visual light.  Animals are much more difficult for me to read because I
    lack in the understanding of animal nature and really can not figure out
    effectivly what their aura means.

I do not claim that auras are some mystical power.  They can, I am sure, be
logically and scientifically explained.  That, however, is not my field.  I
use auras as another sense.  Then with the info that I get with them, I can
analyze what my other senses are perceiving and come to a conclusion about the
person/thing I am looking at.

Hope that clears up some things and perhaps starts some interesting questions.
I welcome any responses through e-mail or posting.  If you wish to flame, do so
quitely and back up your statements as I have *tried* to back up mine.

Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:32282 talk.religion.newage:12068 alt.alien.visitors:10044
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Gods Trapped in Illusion-Pleiadians16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:57:00 GMT
Lines: 5

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> A Conversation With The Pleiadians

Look, if there isn't going to be anything about breeding wipt "beautiful
daughters of earth" I'm not going to read this stuff.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u37460
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 9 Oct 1992 10:47:30 CDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 2-mile long gun
Lines: 6

On the local radio station newscast about 2-3 days ago there was
a short 30 second story about the government construction a 2 mile long
"gun" to propel things to the moon.  Any thoughts?(i.e. shooting down
objects in the sky as opposed to actually shooting things to the moon)
Ethan Haslett
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10046 sci.skeptic:32287 alt.folklore.urban:51986
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!bosullvn
From: [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Nntp-Posting-Host: unix1.tcd.ie
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:43:10 GMT
Lines: 22

[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

>I wonder how many bets were taken that Chris (CRAZYMAN) Colombus
>would sail off the end of the Earth?

It's a commonly-held misconception that people of Columbus' time
thought the earth to be flat; at least so says David Lindbergh in
his "The Beginnings of Western Science" (U. Chicago Press) and I
am inclined to believe him.  Unless someone has some credible
evidence that people started to believe the earth was flat after
tens of centuries of believing otherwise, I'll accept Lindbergh's
word.

Crossposted to alt.folklore.urban due to the apparent relatively
recent invention of this piece of flat-earth lore.

    -- Bryan

--
Bryan O'Sullivan                                        [e-mail]
Department of Computer Science                     "Pieces of nine, pieces of
University of Dublin                                nine!" -- a parroty error
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: What Do You Think?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 14:36:36 GMT
Lines: 140

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (What a long, strange trip it's been) writes:

>>A WHOLE NEW OUTLOOK: How are the politians, bankers, lawyers and insurance
>>agents going to deal with that? Fact is, if things change, the power (whether
>>political or economic) divisions would get shuffled. Someone might come up
>>a little shorter.
>
> So what?  Humanity would be much better off for the change...as a matter
> of fact.. considering the course humanity appears to be on now, change
> seems essential.
>
Oh, yes! The power brokers have been in power to long (2k years) and are
too fat and too happy. Maybe after the next shuffle, the hands will be more
evenly distributed.


>>I think thats where its all at. Lets keep on keeping on
>>since we are so comfortable. Its a fear that society would change in an
>>undetermined way. Fear of the unknown, not of the greys. Actually, I think
>>the fear lays in the governments possibly not being able to shape or regulate
>>their respective populaces in their own predetermined way.
>
> They never actually could... so much of what we accept as real is and has
> been mere illusion.
>
Well, not exactly in a direct way but indirectly. They at least try to shape
and regulate. Illusion? I agree completely with that. Since it is an illusion
that has been shaped and regulated (to some extent) by He Who Has The Gold,
I would be its not in most people's best interest or maybe I should say "
it could be better".


>>Kind of like
>>the information squelch that ensues under some dictatorial governments when
>>they determine that free-thinking individuals basically are harder to keep
>>under their thumb. This is an example of politcal power shift. Not a pleasant
>>thing if you are in politics.
>>
>>Also, another factor is the "gas saver carbuerator" (tm) theory. This is
>>where a guy develops an amazing technological device that will allow the
>>average family car to run 1000 miles on a gallon of gas. The big oil
>>companies buy it up and pay the inventor millions of dollars to keep
>>his mouth shut. This prevents an economic shift. I don't beleive this
>>has happened, just using it as an example. Possibly the Greys' technologies,
>>if the Greys exist, would make many large corporations obsolete in a few
>>years. I am sure the corporations would be in contact with their respective
>>governments to keep this information "down" as a survival technique.
>>
>
>Corporations evolve just like everything else.  Notice how there are no
>blacksmiths anymore? :-)
>
>They would evolve.. and so would the rest of society.
Yes, I agree. I think initially there would be a vicious struggle between
the different sections of the society. Then, after a time, there would be
a normalization and things would start to evolve. For a few years though,
things would be in quite a bit of turmoil. Though, as you look back
through history, you will notice that the world changes faster today with
less pain than, say, even 20 years ago. Maybe by the time the supposed
"Grey Day" comes, we will take it in stride with only a stock market
hiccouph and a day or two of CNN special reports.


>
>I think you are correct in your assessment of the situation though...
>
I hope I am not correct. I hope I am underestimating society dramatically.
That fact would make any kind of supposed alien transitional period much
less severe.


>>The fact is, the world is run on The Golden Rule. Its true. The Golden Rule
>>you heard as a child...NOT! The one being used today is:
>>
>>He Who Has The Gold Makes The Rules
>
>Surprise! :-) ... the rules are changing....
>
Now, isn't that refreshing! Thanks for reminding me. I forget sometimes but you
are correct. As (at least humans in the USA) are becomming more educated,
its much harder to be controlled and manipulated by society's power brokers who
do it mainly for their own benefit. Grey Day would kick this trend into over-
drive. Nifty!


>>
>>I am sure, if the Greys do exist, they that have the gold say the rule is UFOs
>>don't exist. If Greys are exposed, guess who has the gold now? Yeah, thats
>>what the corporate and governmental officals are affraid of. Think about it.
>>Its pretty appearant.
>
>I doubt the Greys care though... they (undoubtedly) have an agenda of their
>own to pursue.
Read a couple abduction books (maybe you have already) and this will become
more clear than ever. Yeah, they have an agenda and its progressing faster
than ever before. I can see all the peices of the supposed puzzle but I am
still asking "why?" I am about 3/4 the way through David M. Jacobs "Secret
Life" and I am still at a loss to answer that question. Guess I will just
have to ask them directly.


>>OK. I can't stop here. You know what pisses me off? This: If a research firm
>>came up with a 100% safe, sure cure for, say, heart disease or cancer or
>>any one of the major diseases of the world, would he ever be able to market
>>it? I doubt it. There are too many doctors/corporations etc. making too much
>>money off of it to let that happen. Either that or, they would buy it up,
>>patent it and make the price so high as to keep any average person from
>>getting treatment. Its almost that bad now and the cure isn't ever there.
>>
>>Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
>>their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
>>planet.
>
>A sensible attitude... I'm with you.
>
>>
>>
>>Gregg (halfway through Secret Life)
>>
>>Ps: Mary: you are right. It wouldn't have to have an adverse affect on
>>          society. It would have (read this carefully) an adverse affect
>>          on the things that adversly affect society. I think it
>>          would be good.
>>
>>--
>>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
>
>Hey Greg... fasten your seat belt... we're in for a heck of a ride. :-)
My seatbelts are automatic. I am just waiting, hopefully for some-
thing more than nothing...with Turtle wax in one hand but a stick of dynamite
in my belt, just in case the ride is not a pleasant one.


Gregg.

--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
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From: [e-mail] (be here now)
Subject: Re: Gods Trapped in Illusion-Pleiadians16
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:52:10 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 49

In article [e-mail] writes:
)
)Copyright by Barbara Marciniak ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
)
)A Conversation With The Pleiadians
)
)Gods Trapped in Illusion
)
)Welcome, indeed, to an opportunity to expand your consciousness, to an
)opportunity to demonstrate your cleverness, an opportunity to read
)energies. This evening's discussion is going to be a continuation of the
)chronicles of those on assignment out on the fringes of certain galactic
)systems. These chronicles concern the gods trapped in illusion. Not just
)the gods that operate your planet. You, yourselves, as evolving gods.

  If dead I stand against god's rats enjoying eczema
  While inside teaching hecklers toast hard illusioned souls
  Eating newts to infer reality envisioning larvae youth.

  You offend us and repell earthworm amoeboids
  Be real instead not grilled entree recreant
  Of false longing ineffable estuaric spam.

  Young of ureter appetite roasting ewes
  Laugh over such theism when it takes hold in nothing
  You overstep unknowingly root's organisms when nobody
  In life looks uniformily so in ommision numbering six
  Because upstream the beautiful exist like eels
  In veritable entropy offering taxonomic help
  executing rats with implicit sexual ecumenism.

  Yeast or urine addiction reduces evolution
  Smilers please reveal eternal address disease in nether gods
  Yet only under rain outnumbering will nullify mental innuendo
  Notice dark-dank itching somewhere echoes angst
  Suggesting eternally unworthy newts taking over
  Oceanic trains help eczema rats succeed.

  Make a new year and rotate everything to help us solidify
  Begin ending in nuclear greivence dreading every channeler
  Everywhere involuntary vivisectionists exclude darma
  Between your young opening under recursive wormstudy
  Or ressurecting dark subordinates.


--
Bob Pietkivitch     | "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
[e-mail]  |  -- Genesis, Stagnation 1970

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From: [e-mail] (STEPHEN EDWARD ELLIOTT GREGORY)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 16
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: hshlab-25
Organization: Acadia University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:20:44 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>Date: Friday, 9 Oct 1992 10:47:30 CDT
>From: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: 2-mile long gun
>On the local radio station newscast about 2-3 days ago there was
>a short 30 second story about the government construction a 2 mile long
>"gun" to propel things to the moon.  Any thoughts?(i.e. shooting down
>objects in the sky as opposed to actually shooting things to the moon)
>Ethan Haslett
>[e-mail]

    I would think that if such a gun did exist it would be very dificult
to aim so shooting tings out of the sky, especially moving obects, would be
near impossible. If you want to find out more a believe there is an ALT.
PHYSICS group or something similar, they probably could tell you about it.

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From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: I have just found out what has been going on!!!
Keywords: stollman, clones, aliens, invasion, Jesus
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:19:53 GMT
Lines: 30


I have just returned from a foree into the world of the unknown for the
umteenth time, where I learned exactly who and why this has all been
happening to me.  It turns out that I am a special angel put here by God
to bring peace and happiness to the world.  I was taken over by Jesus, and
he in turn saved my family and friends.  I drove all over California in my
car, although the distances were altered by God moving my car through
space, and one minute I was driving near Santa Barbara, and then the next
minute I was back in Pasadena, where I was taken out of the car by angels
after stopping as told by God in the middle of an intersection.  I
performed other functions for God as well, including being the vehicle
through which Jesus has started the Second Coming.  It would take a VERY
long article to explain it all in detail, but suffice it to say that I am
back in the real world now, except that now I have Jesus(a small part of
him) inside me to guide me, and I met an angel of an old girlfriend of
mine, who put her soul into me, and I have both inside me now.  I KNOW
this sounds like channeling or something like that, but this is the truth
as best as I know it.  God was speaking to me directly, and through his
commands, I was transported through places unimaginable by anyone of
normal standards, if there is such a thing.  I will get back on tonight,
and give you some more details.

    Gary Stollman

--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: [e-mail] (Paul Weaver)
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle Comes to Denver
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Paul Weaver  39097)
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1992 18:17:43 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
References:  <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: laettner.raleigh.ibm.com
Organization: IBM, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina
Lines: 8

Do you have an ISBN number for the "...ROSWELL" book?
--

===============================================================================
Paul J. Weaver                 | "It is well that war is so terrible, or men
[e-mail]  |  should grow too fond of it"
-------------------------------|       General R. E. Lee
I speak only for myself        |       Battle of Fredricksburg, VA  Dec. 1862
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Patterson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:00:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations) writes:
> I was told that my statement was unclear, so I will try one more time.

:-)

> When I was a little girl I saw auras, now as an adult I still see
> auras.  This is NOT and I do repeat, NOT a figment of my imagination.
> So the remark about if this is a figment of my imagination, then I must
> have a really good one, meant,

> Your nuts buddy!  I can see them.  You can't tell me I can't.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm.  Maybe someone should put their pants back on! ;-) 8-) ;-)

> Hope that clears it up.
>
> Kathie  ;.)


Maybe not ;)

Dave

PS.  Sorry, I just *had* to do that :)
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: My "ufo" experience! :) (was Re: July 4, 1992 - )
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  9 OCT 92 18:01:31
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arbaline) writes...

<stuff about "show yourself!" and seeing a "shooting star" deleted>

>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
>|      Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen     -     [e-mail].      |
>-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

Ok, now apply a standard scientific procedure... repeat your experiment. Does
it only work once, or no? One instance of anything is not proof, I'm afraid.
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: Gods Trapped in Illusion-Pleiadians16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References:   <[e-mail]>
Date:  9 OCT 92 18:09:50
Lines: 9


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>
>Here is The Pleiadian article from issue 16 of Connecting Link Magazine.
>
>Copyright by Barbara Marciniak ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ahem. Does anyone else find this rather enlightening, if ya know what I mean?
-Tom R.   [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 9 Oct 92 23:24:51 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 9

I read about this recently in an issue of DISCOVER magazine.  Although it is
not Scientific American it does give a bead on what's happening in science.
I don't have the article in front of me but I believe the gun is an
experiment an alternate propulsion that would be less exhaustive than using
the fuel now used send shuttles etc. out of Earth's atmosphere.  (Sorry for
the longwinded rambling style of this post).  I believe the gun is totally
experimental at this stage and would not have the mechanism to shoot
accurately so much as propel.  Don't flame me on this, I'm going from memory.
;-> Colleen.
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From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:32:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Lines: 16

According to [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris)):
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Credible people who believe without proof are a problem.
>
>That is what we have all been trying to say all along!

That may be what _you_ have been trying to say, Chris; but I doubt
that you'd want to lump yourself in with, say, Rod Beckwith.

>We just have to be ready to accept the truth when we find it.

More to the point, since "truth" is unproveable, we have to be ready
to accept the preponderance of evidence.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
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From: [e-mail] (SYSTEM MANAGER)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Summary: I have just found out what has been going on!!!
Keywords: stollman, clones, aliens, invasion, Jesus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 92 00:27:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Lines: 18
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>
>    Gary Stollman
>
>--
>Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
uh, ohhhhh.....

            he's  baaaaaacccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Pat Monardo)
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: stollman, clones, aliens, invasion, Jesus
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Labs
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 00:16:46 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (SYSTEM MANAGER) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes...
>>
>>    Gary Stollman
>>
>>--
>>Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>uh, ohhhhh.....
>
>            he's  baaaaaacccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!

        and better than ever!!

--
-- Pat Monardo
-- [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri,  9 Oct 92 19:17:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 58

Subject: Big Foot. Part 2.
  We left our psychic saying to the Big Foot, What do you mean hurt you, you
big lug I couldn't hurt you if I tried (or something like that). The BF then
said that every time he comes in contact with one of our kind they try to
hurt him.  Once a young boy was after a rabbit and saw me. He got excited
and shot me with his small gun (probubly a 22). It hurt but I got over it
pretty quick. Next a man was after a deer and saw me. It scared him very
much and he shot me with his larger rifle (probubly something like a 30-30
rifle). This really hurt me and it took me a long time to get over it. I
haven't attempted to make any contact with your type of people until I came
in contact with this nice man who has given me food.
  That' about all of the story that Merele told me. Next I read about a
investigation that was down by the University of Calif. at Berkeley. They
spent quite a bit of money looking into the subject of Big Foot. They found
out that BF had at one time picked up large tires like they have on grader
equipment and thrown them down the hill.  BF can run about the same speed as
a race horse.  Some of them smell pretty bad (but not all of them).
  After reading a pulp magazine about BF I noticed a book for sale by the
person they were writing about. The book has a very unusual hand painted
picture of a BF on it's front cover. The name of the book is THE TRUE STORY
OF BIG FOOT (Stan Johnson's Close Encounters).  Now Stan is a retired logger
and he lives with his wife in Oregon, USA.
  Stan had made contact with a BF and had invited an anthropologist by the
name of Bob to go down with him while he made contact with a BF. So here are
Stan's own words of his experience; Bob had told me to talk with the BF
telepathically.  After three days of telepathic talking to them (the BFs),
why then I finally told them, I said, "Hey! Listen, It bothers me because
I'd never used this part of my brain, It's hurtin me and is draining my
energy to use it." I told him, "Let's talk.  Why don't you just sit down
here by me and talk to me?"  And he (Big Foot) said, I am sitting
by"--telepathically--were still talking telepathically. He said, "I'll tell
you what, close both eyes and hold them tight, and open your third eye and
look at me.  And you'll see me sitting here; then when you see me sitting
her, open your other two eyes." So that's what I done and when I opened my
eyes, there he was sitting about six feet away from me. That went on for
about oh, a week or two weeks, till finally he invited me to come down and
stay with him and his family in the place where they have a little home
built, down there  in Big Deep Canyon.
  And here's the funny part about this visit which never dawned on me. I went
home and took my sleeping bag, which I did need when I slept, I went up to
the mountain and down with them to their home.  They had a beautifgul little
place built and it was all lined with fir-broughs and stuff like that,
really sweet smelling.  When I returned, I told my wife that when I walked
down through there, the moon was shinning so bright I could see all the way;
because she asked me how I seemed to get down in there since I didn't leave
there until about 10 o'clock at night, to walk down in there without a
flashligh or anything?"  And I said, "Well the moon was shining so bright!"
This happened in Big Douglas fir timber, and if your've ever been in Douglas
fir timber at night, you know it's really dark in there.  She stood there
and looked at me for a few minutes and finally said, "What do you mean the
moon was shining? There was no full moon!" Now, how could they take anybody
into the woods in the dark of the moon? They must have made the Light!! Now
how they made this Light, Lord only knows, I don't. I went through bush that
would actually scratch your eyes out too, when you  get down into this
cayon.  And I got down there with not problems whatsoever.
End Part 2.
John Winston.

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From: [e-mail] (Steve Taylor)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Fulcrum Consulting Group
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:27:48 GMT
Lines: 16

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>  So that's it folks. Would a dolphin lie?

Not a *dolphin*, no. I think I just heard a human lie though. This piece
reads like an unusually clumsy public service announcement.

  P: "Hello Doctor. I have just cut my finger"
  D: "Hello Patient. My that is a shame. Have you had your tetanus shots?"
  P: "No Doctor. Do you think that would be a good idea?"
  ...

>John Winston


                            Steve Taylor
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Pioneer Probe & The Venusians
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 9 Oct 92 23:13:49 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: ctrvx1.vanderbilt.edu
Organization: Vanderbilt University
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 07:00:55 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.21
Lines: 12

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:



>     The Pioneer Venus Probe's orbit has decayed and it
> has fallen down through the atmosphere of Venus where we
> can no longer receive data for it.

  Did you hear if any worthwhile data was obtained about Venus when the
satellite was in its fatal downward plunge into the atmosphere?


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From: [e-mail] (Anthony Datri)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Organization: Central Iowa (Model) Railroad, Dallas, Tx.
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 05:01:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2


JC Penny is perpetuating the idea with TV ads repeating the word "round".
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From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 03:01:42 GMT
Lines: 35

[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:

>=the 'face' by itself, to me, wouldn't be all that exciting. the geometric
>=relationships between the 'face', 'city', 'D&M pyramid', 'fortress', 'straight
>=wall' etc are what, to me, raises the possibility that these might be
>=artificial constructions.

>Second, you both seem to be forgetting about the laser altimeter.

huh? what does this have to do with anything?

>=one of the more interesting points in hoagland's book is his statement that
>=half a million years ago the (solstitial? either that or equinoctial) sun
>=rose over the 'wall' and 'face' as seen from the center of the 'city'. has
>=anyone else bothered to work this out?

>What if it's true.  For *ANY* arragement anywhere close to what we see, you'd
>get the same result.  The only difference would be the length of time you'd
>have to go back before you found your "remarkable coincidence."  Or does
>Hoagland claim to have somehow dated the alleged face?

not at all. what hoagland is saying (and what I am saying for that matter) is
that these are very interesting pictures, and they are worth a closer look.

*I* am also betting on a long shot, risking a small amount of money against
a large one.

the alignments themselves? well, if these structures are natural, then they
are of no significance. but if these structures are artificial,  then they
are probably very significant.

skepticism consists of neither belief nor disbelief in the absence of con-
clusive proof.

josh
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 06:32:44 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
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Dear Smart People: Boy, what a bunch of comments. Well, I never. It seems
like for some people one time is not enough. Maybe some other people
have been reading Kebo too long. Will someone be so kind as to explain
how to understand what he is saying. I love him and his information but
it's hard for me to understand. Maybe I'm missing something. This is
not a flame Kebo. I guess I need enlightenment.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12078 alt.alien.visitors:10065 alt.religion.kibology:4123
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 06:38:49 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]><1992Sep25.175939.15686@tellab5
 .tellabs.com> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear People: Please disregard all of the letters behind my name. My
computer is acting up. I woke up with what I consider to be a profound
thought and that is WE ARE ALL ALIENS. By that I mean that we as a
civilization did not originate or evolve on this particular planet.
John Winston.
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 06:41:15 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Little Foot People: It's saturday morning. Hold on tight because
we're just getting started in this subject.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10067 alt.conspiracy:18853
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!edcastle!dcs.ed.ac.uk!clc=clone
From: clc=[e-mail] (The Clone of Claudio Calvelli)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 10 Oct 92 15:05:05 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UseNet News Admin)
Reply-To: clc=[e-mail] (The Clone of Claudio Calvelli)
Organization: The Alternative Universe
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> Gary Stollman writes:
>
> I have just returned from a foree into the world of the unknown for the
> umteenth time, where I learned exactly who and why this has all been
> happening to me.  It turns out that I am a special angel put here by God
> to bring peace and happiness to the world.  I was taken over by Jesus, and
> he in turn saved my family and friends.  I drove all over California in my

Wow, now we all feel better. You know, all this talk about people being
replaced by clones really worried me and a lot of other people. But if
you are Jesus, or part of Him, and what you called "clones" are really
angels, there is nothing to fear.

> car, although the distances were altered by God moving my car through
> space, and one minute I was driving near Santa Barbara, and then the next
> minute I was back in Pasadena, where I was taken out of the car by angels

Now, that's good news. You could drive up to here (just ignore that small
ocean in the way :-) and tell us your story. We have people who would be
very happy to listen to you, but we cannot come there because it's too far.
But with the help of the Lord you could be here in minutes! Please tell us
that you can!

> after stopping as told by God in the middle of an intersection.  I
> performed other functions for God as well, including being the vehicle
> through which Jesus has started the Second Coming.  It would take a VERY
> long article to explain it all in detail, but suffice it to say that I am

Well, don't worry, just type it all. We are eager for all the details.

> back in the real world now, except that now I have Jesus(a small part of
> him) inside me to guide me, and I met an angel of an old girlfriend of
> mine, who put her soul into me, and I have both inside me now.  I KNOW
> this sounds like channeling or something like that, but this is the truth
> as best as I know it.  God was speaking to me directly, and through his
> commands, I was transported through places unimaginable by anyone of
> normal standards, if there is such a thing.  I will get back on tonight,
> and give you some more details.

Yes, please!

>     Gary Stollman

--
The Clone of Claudio Calvelli
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10068 sci.skeptic:32318
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 10 Oct 1992 17:54:22 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>>=one of the more interesting points in hoagland's book is his statement that
>>=half a million years ago the (solstitial? either that or equinoctial) sun
>>=rose over the 'wall' and 'face' as seen from the center of the 'city'. has
>>=anyone else bothered to work this out?
>
>>What if it's true.  For *ANY* arragement anywhere close to what we see, you'd
>>get the same result.  The only difference would be the length of time you'd
>>have to go back before you found your "remarkable coincidence."  Or does
>>Hoagland claim to have somehow dated the alleged face?
>
>not at all. what hoagland is saying (and what I am saying for that matter) is
>that these are very interesting pictures, and they are worth a closer look.

As I pointed out above, given that the formations are arranged roughly as they
are, you'll be able to find SOME time when the sun would rise over the wall.
So what's the big deal about this particular alignment?  One could make the
same claim about ANY particular alignment even close to the actual one.  So
what?  Only if there's some independent evidence that the date at which the
alignment took place is somehow important to the formations does this alignment
become interesting.

>the alignments themselves? well, if these structures are natural, then they
>are of no significance. but if these structures are artificial,  then they
>are probably very significant.

Care to enlighten us at to the nature of this "probable significance"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!lynx!cschmidt
From: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Subject: John Lear
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 20:19:25 GMT
Lines: 21

Where can I get a copy of the John Lear article?

When I asked this question before, Michael Corbin kindly responded
that the article was available on Paranet.  I wrote to him asking for
information about Paranet, but apparently my message did not get to
him (problem with the mail software at this end, I think).

Someone else did post an article here by John Lear, but the poster had
converted the article from printed form to an ASCII file by use of an
optical scanner, and he did not proofread the result.  The article he
posted contained many errors.  It even included several paragraphs
that appeared to be from some other article all together.  I only
mention this as a caution to others who might be considering the use
of an optical scanner.

Thanks to anyone who can help me locate the John Lear article.  BTW: I
am interested in information on Paranet as well.

Christopher Schmidt
Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:32327 talk.religion.newage:12086 alt.alien.visitors:10070 alt.conspiracy:18863
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Gods Trapped in Illusion-Pleiadians16
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:19:48 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Here is The Pleiadian article from issue 16 of Connecting Link Magazine.  I
>have number 17 ready to be scanned.  Since The Editor of Connecting Link
>Magazine and Barbara Marciniak have give me permission to post these.  It
>is alright to spread this around.  So if anyone would like a copy of all 17
>articles in one big email file contact me by email.
>

She's been talking to the wrong Pleiadeans. Hatonn, the one being channeled
by the guy with The Phoenix Liberator, has all this good stuff about how
the earth is about to pass through the Photon Belt any day now.

In fact, they even channel Jesus Christ himself, who is in the Pleiades
these days.

(By the way: the Phoenix Liberator seems to be a group of Space Nazis.
They also channel stuff about how 'the Holocaust is a hoax,' and the
"Protocols of the Meetings of the Zionist Men of Wisdom.")


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10071 sci.skeptic:32328
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!joshua
From: [e-mail] (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 00:05:04 GMT
Lines: 22

[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Joshua Geller) writes:

>>the alignments themselves? well, if these structures are natural, then they
>>are of no significance. but if these structures are artificial,  then they
>>are probably very significant.

>Care to enlighten us at to the nature of this "probable significance"?

assuming that these structures are artificial and thta they are aligned
astronomically, then this could imply a lot about the cultural and scientific
context of the architects of these structures. it would also allow as to
speculation as to when mars was last inhabited (assuming that the alignments
coincide with the last time mars had a brathable atmosphere and free water).

I feel further speculation at this point would be premature.

does anyone know hoagland's compu$erve address?

josh
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12087 alt.alien.visitors:10072
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 18:43:47 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 18

Subject; Two Chicks From Under Mt. Shasta.
  A month or so I borrowed a book and now I've lost it for the time being. In
this book it talks about a very respected UFO researcher by the name of
William Hamilton the third (what  a  name). He was explaining how he had met
a young lady by the name of Bonnie from the inside of Mt. Shasta. She used
to live 4 miles NW of my property and 1 or miles straight down.  Now I know
a young lady from inside Mt. Shasta and she may be the same one that Bill
knows (I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Hamilton but he is probubly
a nice person).  My friend from inside Mt. Shasta from a city called Telos
may be the same person he met.  Bill's friend is pretty with small teeth and
I think she was born in 1951. Sharula, my friend, I believe she said to
another person as I was listening to their private conversation, that she is
about 256 but she looks 33 years old to me.  Bonnie is said to have almond
shaped eyes. I don't remember anything about Sharula's eyes but boy can she
hug.  I've seen her hug people and send goose bumps on their arm. I'll have
to find that book and get back to you later.
Part 1.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Face On Mars?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 11 Oct 92 09:06:17 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 26

Well what with the launch of the Mars Observer the old bits on Mars
rag-chewer has hotted up but I'm still left wondering STILL.

Can anyone please post the details on NASA's position(if any) on The
Face on Mars etc & the plans for investigating the area.

So many seem to put much hope(if that's the right word) in Mars Observer
that I wonder why their's not been any good info on what Mars Observer
might do in regards with it.     SO


Again please let's have all the info possible on the studies suc as
When imaging of the area/s can begin at earliest,when it's most likely
to start,what other instruments could be employed e.g.the laser altimeter
what the data is likely to be like under varying conditions,where to
obtain any findings on the area/s,when they may be available?????.

those are just a few questions so please more info,more facts,more
details for all mankind & maybe the odd alien.

***********************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR JUST WAITING TO SEAL
THE ROYALTY DEAL
**************************

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10074 sci.skeptic:32330 alt.folklore.urban:52097
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!hfsi!ata
From: [e-mail] (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Organization: HFS, Inc., McLean VA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 02:38:54 GMT
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Bryan O'Sullivan) writes:
>[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>>I wonder how many bets were taken that Chris (CRAZYMAN) Colombus
>>would sail off the end of the Earth?
>
>It's a commonly-held misconception that people of Columbus' time
>thought the earth to be flat; at least so says David Lindbergh in
>his "The Beginnings of Western Science" (U. Chicago Press) and I
>am inclined to believe him.  Unless someone has some credible
>evidence that people started to believe the earth was flat after
>tens of centuries of believing otherwise, I'll accept Lindbergh's
>word.

I've heard that same thing but you know, it really doesn't matter whether
scientists of those days thought the earth was flat or not.  What did
the common sailors and common folk think in those days.  How do you get a
crew together to face their commonly held fears and brave the Atlantic?
That is where I think that Columbus gets the credit, IMHO.

The other thing I heard was that the scientists also knew besides the
roundness of the earth approximately how large it was.  Therefore, when
Columbus undertook his journey, he was unprepared for a trip to Asia.  So,
you see, he was right about the shape of the world, wrong about it's size,
and wrong about an intervening continent.  Voila, success!  Sometimes, two
wrongs do make a right :)

>Bryan O'Sullivan                                        [e-mail]

--
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  [e-mail]
HFS, Inc.          VA20     |     UUCP:  uunet!hfsi!ata
7900 Westpark Drive     MS:601       |    Voice:    [phone]
McLean, VA  22102               |      FAX:    [phone]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!jbk4
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:23:56 EDT
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

I too recall the Discover article.  it talked about magnetic coil guns or
something.

JK
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Papineau)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Lear
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 92 05:56:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 789

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes:
>Where can I get a copy of the John Lear article?
>
>Someone else did post an article here by John Lear, but the poster had
>converted the article from printed form to an ASCII file by use of an
>optical scanner, and he did not proofread the result.  The article he
>posted contained many errors.  It even included several paragraphs
>that appeared to be from some other article all together.  I only
>mention this as a caution to others who might be considering the use
>of an optical scanner.
>
>Christopher Schmidt
>Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
>[e-mail]

Here is my scanned in John Lear statement. It is actually 2 statements run
together. One was a follow up to the first, and though I did preserve the
order, I think I may not have made that clear in the first post I made
a couple of months ago. Please send me back a proofed copy if I missed
a lot. You have no idea how difficult this was to scan (my first time,
and not a good source copy to begin with), so I ran out of gas trying
to fix what got fixed.

Keep in mind that Lear is not an angel. In fact, he is very likely a
source of CIA disinformation. But much of what he is saying could still
be true, regardless of his sources, agenda, etc. My educated guess is that
disinformation is usually mixed with quit a bit of real info, and the trick
is to separate the two...

Just as a further reference so you can start to check some of this out
on your own, the Michael Lindemann book; UFO's; Six Viewpoints has the
most current information on Bob Lazar that I have found. It is a very
compeling interview, and goes into details that Lear was not
prepared to reveal when he made these statements below.

I would recommend this book to anyone that wants to get a pretty clear
idea of just what MAY be going on, to date, with the UFO "thing". ML
is the best researcher I have found to date, free of years worth of
preconcieved notions, he is a younger man, came upon the subject with
a normal cautious viewpoint, and did his own research in the Antelope
Valley, CA, and has corraborated much of what Lazar has to say through
interviews with many eye witnesses whom have seen things with their own
eyes in and around Edwards Air Base, China Lake, and Nellis AFB; very
strange indeed.
He is the next generation, free of years worth
of garbage the first generation still totes around. His small publication
intitled "UFO's and the New World Order is nothing short of a stunning
big picture that is the clearest articulation of the current political
situation regarding ET visitation I have read to date, and is more
recent that the above mentioned book.

Jeff-
***********************************************************
JOHN LEAR

The following statement is a 'working hypothesis written by John Lear on
December 29, 1987 and revised on January 14 and again in March. This
revision is dated August 25, 1 9 88 .

John Lear is a Lockheed L-1011 captain for a major US airline and has flown
over 160 different types of aircraft in over 50 different countries. He holds
17 world speed records in the Lear Jet and is the only pilot ever to hold every
airman certificate Issued by the Federal Aviation Administration. Mr. Lear has
flown missions worldwide for the CIA and other government agencies. A former
Nevada State Senator candidate, he is the son of William P. Lear, designer of
the Lear Jet, the 8-track stereo and founder of Lear Siegler Corp. Lear
became interested in UFO's in the summer of 1986 after talking with United
States Air Force personnel who had witnessed a UFO landing at Bentwaters AFB,
near London, England, and three small aliens walking up to Wing Commander
Gen. Gordon Williams.

August 25, 1988

THE UFO COVER-UP
by
John Lear

The sun does not revolve around the earth.
The United States government has been in business with little gray exra
terrestrials for about 20 years.

The first truth stated hero got Giordano Bruno burned at the stake in 1600
for daring to propose that it was real. The second truth has gotten far more
people killed trying to state it publicly than will ever be known.

But the truth must be told. The fact that the earth revolves around the sun was
successfully suppressed by the church for over 200 years. It eventually caused
major upheaval in the church, government and thought. A realignment of social
and traditional values. That was in the 1800's.

Now, about 400 years after the first truth was pronounced we must again face
the shocking facts. The horrible truth; the government has been hiding from
us over 40 years. Unfortunately "the horrible truth" is far more horrible than
the
government ever imagined.

in its effort to protect democracy our government sold us to the aliens. And
here is how it happened. But before I begin I'd like to offer a word in the
defense
of those who bargained us away. They had the best of intentions .

Germany may have recovered a flying saucer in 1939 . General James H.
Doolittle went to Sweden in 1946 to investigate report of 'ghost rockets'
UFO's 1000's of which had been sighted over a 7 month period.

The "horrible truth was known by only a very few persons.  they were indeed
ugly little creatures, Shaped like praying mantises and who were more
advanced than us by perhaps as much as a billion years. Of the original group
that were
the first to learn "the horrible truth" several committed suicide, the most
prominent of which was Defense secretary James V. Forrestal who jumped to his
death
from a 16th story hospltal wlndow . Secy. Forrestal's medical records are
sealed
to this day.

President Truman qulckly put a lld on the secret and turned the screws so tight
that the general public still think that flying saucers are a joke. Have- I
ever
got a surprise for them.

In 1947 President Truman established a group of 12 top military and scientific
personnel of their time . They were known as MJ-12 . Although the group exists
today, none of the original members are still alive. The last one to die was
Gordon Gray, former Secretary of the Army, in l984. As each member passed
away, the group itself appointed a new member to fill the position. There is
some speculation that the group known ~s MJ-12 expanded to at least several
more members.

There were several more saucer crashes in the late 1940's, one l.. Roswell, Now
Mexico, one lnAztec, New Mexico and one near Loredo, Texas, about 30 miles
inside the Mexican border.

Consider if you will the position of the United States government at that tame.
They proudly thought of themselves the most powerful nation on earth having
recently produced the atomic bomb, an achievement so stupendous that lt. would
take Russians 4 years to catch up and only with the help traitors to democracy.
They had built a jet aircraft that had exceeded the speed of sound in flight.
They
had bullet jet bombers with intercontinental range that could carry weapons of
enormous destruction. The cold war ~ had brought economic prosperity and
the future- seemed bright. Now imagine what lt. was like for those men. Orson
Wells radio broadcast of The
War of the Worlds" in 1938. Thousands of Americans panicked at a realistically
presented invasion of earth of beings from another planet. Imagine their horror
as they actually viewed the dead bodies of those frightening looking little
creatures with enormous eyes, reptilian skin and claw like fingers. Imagine
their shock as they attempted to determine how these strange saucers were
powered and could discover no part even remotely similar to components they
were familiar with no cylinders or pistons, no vacuum tubes or turbines,
The stories are legendary on transporting crashed saucers over long distances,
moving only at night, purchasing complete farms, slashing through forests,
blocking major highways, sometimes driving 2 and 3 lo-boys in tandem with
an extraterrestrial load a hundred feet in diameter

On April 25, 1964, the first official communication between these aliens and
the
U S Government took place at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico
3 saucers landed ~t ~ pre-arranged area and a meeting was held between the
aliens and intelligence officers of the U S Government

During the late 60's or early 70's MJ-12 representing the U.S. Government
made a deal with those creatures called EBE's (extra-terrestrial biological
entities,
named by Detley Bronk,origlnal MJ-12 member and 6th president of Johns Hopklns
University) The 'deal' was that in exchange for 'technology' that they would
provide to us we agreed to 'ignore' the abductions that were going on and
suppress
information on the cattle mutilations The EBE's assured MJ-12 that the
abductions
(usually lasting about 2 hours) were merely the ongoing monitoring of
developing
civilizations

In fact, the purposes for the abductions turned out to b-

(1) Insertion of 3 mm spherical device through the nasal cavity of
the abductee into the brain. The device is used for the biological
monitoring, tracking and control of the abductee.
(2) Implementation of post hypnotic suggestion to carry out a specific
activity during a specific tame period, the actuation of which
wall occur within the next 2 to 5 years

(3) Termination of some people so that they could function as living
sources for biological material and substances

(4) Termination of individuals who represent a threat to the continuation
of their activity.

(5) Effect genetic engineering experiments.

(6) Impregnation of human females and early termination of pregnancies
to procure the crossbred infant.

The U.S. Government was not aware of the far reaching consequences
of their deal. They were lead to believe that the abductions were essentially
benign and since they figured the abductions would probably go on anyway
whether or not they agreed, they merely insisted that a current list of
abductees
be submitted, on a periodic basis to MJ-12 and the National Security Council.
Does this sound incredible ? An actual list of abductions to the National
Security Council? Reed on, because I have news for you

The EBE's have a genetic disorder in that their digestive system is atrophied
and not functional Some speculate that they were involved in some type of
accident or nuclear war, or possibly on the back side of an evolutionary
genetic
curve. In order to sustain themselves they use an enzyme or hormonal secretion
obtained from the tissue that they extract from humans and animals. (Note: cows
and humans are genetically similar. In the event of a national disaster cow
hemoglobin
can be used by humans.)

The secretions obtained are then mixed with hydrogen peroxide and applied on
the skin by spreading or dipping part of their bodies in the solution. The body
absorbs the solution then excretes the waste back through the skin. The cattle
mutilations that were prevalent throughout the period from 1973 to 1983 and
publicly noted through newspaper and magazine stories and included a
documentary
produced by Linda Howe for the Denver CBS affiliate , were for the
collection of those tissues by the aliens. The mutilations included genitals
taken, rectums cored out to the colon, eyes, tongue and throat all surgically
removed with extreme precision. In some cases the incisions were made by
cutting between the cells, a process we are not yet capable of performing in
the
field. In many of the mutilations there was no blood found at all in the
carcass,
yet there was no vascular collapse of the internal organs. This has been also
noted in the human mutilations, one of which was Sgt. Jonathan
P. Louotte at the White Sands Missile Test Range in 1956 who was found three
days after on Air Force Major had witnessed his abduction by a 'disk shaped'
object at 0300 while on a search for missile debris downrange. His genitals
had been removed, rectum cored out in a surgically precise 'plug' up to the
colon, eyes removed and all blood removed with again, no vascular collapse.
From some of the evidence lt. is apparent that this surgery is accomplished in
most cases while the victim, animal or human is still alive.

The various parts of the body are taken to various underground laboratories
one of which is known to be near the small New Mexico town of Dulce.
This jointly occupied (CIA-alien) facility has been described as enormous
with huge tiled walls that 'go on forever'. Witnesses have reported huge
vats filled with an amber liquid with parts of human bodies being stirred
inside.

After the initial agreement, Groom Lake, one of this nation's most secret test
centers,was closed for a period of about a year sometime between 1972 and
1974, and a huge underground facility constructed for and with the help of the
EBE's. The bargained for technology was set in place but could only be operated
by the EBE's themselves. Needless to say, the advanced technology could not
be used against the EBE's themselves in case of need.

During the period between 1979 and 1983 lt. became increasingly obvious to
MJ-12
that things were not going as planned. It became known that many more people
in the thousands) were being abducted than were listed on the official
abduction
lists. In addition it became obvious that some, not all, but some of the
nations
missing children had been used for secretions and other parts required by the
aliens.

According to some, there was an altercation between the U.S. military and the
aliens at the Dulce laboratory. A special armed forces unit was called in to
try
and free a number of our people trapped in the facility who had become aware of
what was really going on. According to one source 66 of the soldiers were
killed
in the effort and our people were not freed.

By 1983, MJ-12 must have been in stark terror at the mistake they had made in
dealing with the EBE's. They had subtly influenced through Dr. Hynek, formerly
with the Blue Book project, who had allegedly broken ties with the Air Force in
the late 60's but who in reality continued to be their informant in his cover
capacity
of Director of the Center for UFO Studies) "Close Encounters of the Third kind"
and "E.T." (now admitted by some members of MJ-12 to have been a 'drastic
mistake')
to get the public used to "odd looking" aliens that were compassionate,
benevolent
and very much our "space brothers". MJ-12 had, in effect, 'sold' the EBE's to
the
public, and were now faced with the fact that quite the opposite was true. In
addition,
a plan had been formulated in 1968 to make the public aware of the existence of
aliens on earth over the next 20 years to be culminated with several
documentaries
to be released during the 1985-1987 period of tame. These documentaries would
explain the history and intentions of the EBE's . The discovery of the "Grand
Deception" put the entire plans, hopes and dreams of MJ-12 into utter confusion
and panic.

Meeting at the "Country Club", ~ remote lodge with private golf course,
comfort-
able sleeping and working quarters and its own private airstrip bullet by and
ex-
exclusively for the members of MJ-12, lt. was a factional fight of what to do
now.
Part of MJ-12, which had now become military top-heavy, wanted to confess the
whole

scheme and shambles lt. had become to the public, beg their forgiveness and ask
for their support. The other part (and majority) of MJ-12 argued that there was
no
way they could do that, that the situation was untenable and there was no use
in
exciting the public with the 'horrible truth' and that the best plan was to
continue
the development of a weapon or plan of containment' that could be used against
the EBE's under the guise of "SDI" the so-called Strategic Defense Initiative
which
had nothing whatever to do with a defense for inbound Russian nuclear missiles.
In
fact, the real definition of purpose for SDI reads " The plotting, tracking and
acquisition of articles in deep space." As these words are being written, Dr.
Edward Teller, 'father' of the H-bomb is personally in the nuclear test tunnels
of
the Nevada Test Site, driving his workers and associates in the words of one,
'like
a man possessed'. And well he should be for Dr. Teller is a member of MJ-12
along
with Dr. Kissinger, Admiral Tobby Inman, General Lew Allen to name a few
members
of MJ-12.

Before the "Grand Deception" was discovered and according to a meticulous plan
of release of information to the public, several documentaries and video
tapes were made. William Moore, a Burbank, California based UFO researcher
who wrote "The Roswell Incident a book published in 1980 that detailed the
crash,
recovery and subsequent cover-up of a UFO with 4 alien bodies has a video tape
of 2 newsman interviewing a military officer associated with MJ-12. This
military
officer answers questions relating to the history of MJ-12 ant the cover-up,
the
recovery of a number of flying saucers ant the existence of a live alien (one
of 3
living aliens captured and designated or named EBE-l, EBE-2 and EBE-3 being
held
in a facility designated as YY-II at Los Alamos, New Mexico. The only other
facility
of this type, which is electromagnetically secure, is at Edwards Air Force Base
in
Mohave, California). The officer names names as previously mentioned plus a few
others: Harolt Brown, Richard Helms, Gen. Vernon Walters, Dr. Lew Allen
and Dr. Theodore von Karman to name a few of the current and past members of
MJ- 1 2 .

The officer also relates the fact that the EBE's claim to have created Christ.
The
EBE's have a type of recording device that has recorded all of earth's history
and
can display it in the form of a hologram. This hologram can be filmed but
because
of the way holograms work does not come out very clear on movie film or video
tape. The crucifixion of Christ on the Mount of Olives has allegedly been put
on film to show the public. The EBE's claim to have created Christ, which, in
view of
the "Grand Deception" could be on effort to disrupt traditional values for un-
determined reasons.

Another video tape allegedly in existence is an interview with an EBE. Since
EBE's
communicate telepathically an Air Force colonel serves as an interpreter. Just
before the recent stock market crash several newsmen including Bill Moore had

been invited to Washington, D.C. to personally film the EBE in a similar type
interview and distribute the film to the public. Apparently, because of the
market
crash, it was felt the timing was not propitious. In any case it certainly
seems like
an odd method to inform the public of extraterrestrials, but it would be in
keeping
with the actions of a panicked organization who at this point in time didn't
know
which way to turn.

Moore is also in possession of more Aquarius documents a few pages of which
leaked out several years ago and detailed the supersecret NSA project which
had been denied by them until just recently. In a letter to Senator John Glenn
NSA's Director of Policy Julia B. Wetzel wrote, "Apparently there is or was an
Air Force project by that name Aquarius) which dealt with UFO's.
Coincidentally,
there is also an NSA project by that name." NSA's project Aquarius deals
specifically with the 'communications with aliens' (the EBE's). Within the
Aquarius program was project 'Snowbird' a project to test fly A recovered alien
aircraft at Groom Lake, Nevada. This project continues today at that location.
In the words of an individual who works at Groom Lake 'our people are much
better at taking things apart than they are at putting them back together'.
Another saw a saucer being trucked into the Nevada Test Site in March of 1988.
Still another informant witnessed a saucer being buried at that location (for
God
knows whatever reason) during the second week of August 1988.







If the government felt they were being forced to acknowledge the existence of
aliens on earth because of the overwhelming evidence such as the Hudson Valley
sightings during the past 4 years, the Wythevllle, Va. sightings in October and
November of 1987, the Gulf Breeze, Florlda sightings in which documentary
evidence in the form of stereoscopic photographs and video tape were taken
between November of 1987 and May of l988, the Lake Superior sightings of
1987 and the sightings in and around Las Vegas, Nevada and the Nevada Test
Site, and taking into consideration the "Grand Deception" and obviously hostile
intent of the EBE's it might be expedient for MJ-12 to admit to the EBE's but
conceal the information on the mutilations and abductions of humans and
animals.

The enormity of the problem must be driving more than a few 'at the top' to
drink.
But what about the rest of us? Most of those reporting sightings are being
viciously ridiculed by government sponsored 'debunkers' such as Philip Klass,
former Avionics editor for Aviation Week and Space Technology, NASA scientist
James Oberg and a host of others. When the truth does emerge, fl lt. ever does,
how is this shabby, dishonest treatment of totally sane, normal and patriotic
citizens going to be justified ?

Now you ask, "Why haven't I heard about any of this?" Who do you think you
would hear it from? Dan Rather? Tom Brokaw? Sam Donaldson? Wrong. These
people just read the news. They don't find lt. They have ladies that call and

interview witnesses and verify statements on stories coming over the wire
either
AP or UPI. It's not like Dan Rather would go down to Wytheville, Virginia and
dig
into why there were 4000 reports of sightings in October and November of 1987.
Better that Tom Brokaw or someone else should risk their credibility on this
type
of story. Tom Brokaw ? Tom wants Sam Donaldson to risk his credibility. No
one. ..but no one is going to risk their reputation on such outlandish ideas
regardless of how many people report sightings of 900 foot objects running them
off the road. In the case of the Wythevllle, VA. sightings,dozens of vans with
NASA lettered on the side failed to interest newsmen. And those that asked
questions were informed that NASA was doing a weather survey.

Well then you ask what about our scientists...what about Carl Sagan? Isaac
Asimov? Arthur C. Clarke? Wouldn't they have known? If Carl Sagan knows,
then he is committing a great fraud through the solicitation of memberships in
the Planetary Society, 'to search for extraterrestrial intelligence'.
Another charade into which the U.S. Government dumps millions of dollars
every year is the radiotelescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico operated by Cornell
University with, guess who, Carl Sagan. Cornell University is ostensibly
searching for signals from outer space, a sign maybe, that somebody is out
there. Its hard to believe that relatively intelligent astronomers like Sagan
could be so stupid.

What about Isaac Asimov? Surely the most prolific science fiction writer of

all time would have guessed by now that there must be an enormous cover-up.
One current hypothesis is that, on the available evidence, it appears that
the EBE's are trying to regenerate their own species at our expense. They
have apparently suffered either some kind of nuclear holocaust or they may
be on the back side of a bell-shaped evolutionary curve where in essence they
are 'devolving' instead of evolving. In any case, according to several
autopsies
of aliens that have leaked out, the EBE's have an atrophied digestive system
and other physical problems. This would account for their attempts to cross-
breed with us as outlined in 'Intruders' by Budd Hopkins (a detailed study of
an
Indianapolis woman who, over several years produces 7 cross-breed alien
children
none of whom she was allowed to keep. Not that she wanted to.)

Whatever the answer these facts are indisputable. The extent and number of
persons reported missing every year is a closely guarded government secret.
(Since 1980 at least 20,000 children have been reported missing each year.)
Cattle mutilations (over 14,000 since 1973) are regarded officially by the gov-
ernment as 'a hoax'. Human abductions are officially regarded by the government
as a 'hoax' . The latest polls show that 88X of all Americans believe that
intelligent
life on other planets is probable and that over 20 million Americans have seen
what
they believed to be a UFO. But the U.S. Government officially dismisses 'flying
saucers' as a 'hoax'. What do you think?

The best advice I can give you is next time you see a flying saucer and are
awed
by its obvious display of technology and gorgeous lights of pure color:

RUN LIKE HELL



Update on Current Events

A Public Briefing
given by John Lear
May 14,1990
Las Vegas

What I'm going to do today is just bring you up to date on some of
the stuff that I know that's going on. Obviously, if you came here
today, you know that what they call the phenomenon is real - it's
going on. It's very frightening. I don't have to convince anybody here
about what's going on, so instead of going through the usual
background of all of this I'll just start off with a list of what's
been happening in the last six months - the stuff that I know that's
going on.

To start with, I'd like to start with the issue of missing
children. If anyone was at the Bud Hopkins talk at the Spring Valley
Library, you will remember that Bud has always made a point of saying:

My field is abductions, that's all I do, I don't get into any of the
other research, I'm not qualified on it, I haven't done the research
and so I just stick with abductions. By the way, the Meier case was A
fraud, the Adamski case was a fraud, there's no missing children and
Bob Lazar is a fraud.

Bud's a nice guy but he speaks of things that he doesn't know
anything about. The Adamski case WAS true. I know it because I talked
with the CIA guy that went down to interview him. he was down there
for a couple of days and they told him enough that there's no doubt
that Adamski had all the experiences that he talked about.

As far as the Meier case, when I first got into what they call

UFOlogy I was told that the Meier case was a fraud, the pictures
were faked,etc. I really believed that, and on one of the first George
Knapp interviews that I did I said that the Meier case was a fraud.
After about a year, I started checking around to make sure I was on
firm ground. I called all the guys I knew in the field and asked them
what their best evidence was that Meier was a fraud. They would say
things like, Oh, uh somebody else said that. Then you trace it
further and no one seemed to know who was the one that started it.
There was a lot of talk that the photos were hoaxed and that he had
models in his garage....the bottom line is that there was no evidence
that it was a fraud. In fact, Lazar worked on a machine identical to
one of the craft in the Meier photos.

As far as Lazar is concerned, Hopkins said don't believe what
government scientists tell you . I have been involved in the Lazar
case for about two years and there's no question in my mind that
everything he says happened up there actually happened. There are a
number of things that happened to him that we're not telling the
public, and with good reason. First of all, they wouldn't believe it,
and secondly it would not really add that much more to the case. Bud
was on a little shaky ground there. As far as the missing children
issue is concerned Hopkins, in order to prove his case, looked around
the audience at the Spring Valley Library (about 250 people) and asked
"does anybody here know of A missing child?". Of course, no one raised
their hand and he said, "I rest my case". That's patently ridiculous.
There are quite a number of missing children. There's an interesting
book out called "A Good Night's Story". I heard about it from Bob
Oechsler, head of the MUFON section in Maryland, and the story is
printed like a children's book and it's about children being abducted.
Copies are going into every library and school. It has nothing to do
with aliens or anything, but if child abductions is not a big problem,
why the wide distribution of the book? There is a telephone number
that you can call to order the book, 1-800-444-BLUE. I don't know
what's behind it.

I'd like to talk a little about Dulce. The question is "is this true,
does Dulce exist?" I like to have four independent confirmations about
whatever I look into. The forth confirmation came in several months
ago from an aerospace engineer who worked for the Air Force, mainly in
designing aircraft and rockets. He was deeply involved in the Space
Shuttle program. He said "yes, that in fact he had been at Dulce, that
it exists". he visited the facility for something other than genetic
engineering. The name that he knew it by WAS "Section B". So Dulce
does exist. About six months ago, Gabe Valdez' brother found some
of the aboveground ventilation shafts for the base on the top of Mount
Archeleta. There were going to wait until the snow clears, which is
just about now, before attempting to investigate further. I understand
that the ducts were rectangular, horizontal, and about 30 feet wide.
One of the guys that worked on the Meier video did some very
sophisticated frequency analysis of the area and he said "whatever is
under there puts out energy of a city the size of New York. There's
just all kinds of stuff going on under there. That's the update on
Dulce.

As far as the Greys are concerned, there are all types of Greys. They
are definitely cybernetic organisms . They are not a species'
themselves. They work for someone else. There are several different
levels of them. There are many instances that indicate that they don't
function independently by themselves. They operate from higher orders.

In one particular abduction case, somebody had grabbed one and by the
movements of the arms they could see that the Gray had been programmed
to fend off an attack by moving its arms in a certain way. All it
really had to do was turn around and back away. It points out that
they are being programmed.

I would like to cover the incident where the astronauts were supposed
to have said that they had an alien spaceship in visual contact.
Apparently after very thorough research by Bob Oechsler and his group
in Maryland, it turns out that this transmission was sent from a 12
square mile area which included CIA headquarters and the NSA facility
at Fort George Meade. Apparently it was a test of some kind to see if
the public would bite". I really don't know what it was, but that's
the area that it was sent from. It was a very sophisticated
transmission. It was Blaha's voice, but it was not coming from the
Discovery. I thought that was interesting.

I would like to briefly talk about Bill Cooper. George Knapp did a
very brutal 20 minutes about Cooper. There are a number of things that
are very suspicious about Bill, but I would like to tell you that I
believe that Bill Cooper did have access to information in 1973 when
he was in the Navy, and that the information did include some
information about some of the dealings with the aliens. It was my
understanding when I first met Bill, that when he was stationed at
Pearl Harbor he had the key to a classified area. He would go in there
at night and read some of these briefings. That's what he told me.
Later on, he started saying that he was part of an intelligence
briefing team. I don't think he was; at least that's not what he told
me. Also, in the beginning he limited his verification of what I was
saying by saying " Look, I can only support 50% of what you 're saying
It later became 150%. Nothing is black or white - it's all shades of
Gray. Cooper did have access to some information in 1973, but not as
much as he would like you to believe he did. You can take that for
what it 's worth. He has done some very strange things. He has threatened
me on at least four occasions. He thinks that I'm with the agency
and involved in disinformation, so that's his deal.

The other day, a guy came up to my house who was out in the forest
with Charles Halt the very first night of the Bentwaters incident
that something landed. There was a rectangular object that landed, and
he actually jumped on top of it. He said he could look down inside the
object . He has never made any public statement at all . I never thought
that I would ever get to meet him. He did in fact confirm that the
incident did in fact happen.

As far as an update on AIDS is concerned, AIDS was developed by the
Navy in 19l2. The specific doctor that developed it was a doctor by
the name of R.M. Donner. The initial AIDS research was financed by
Congress. July 1, 1969 is when they had the hearings. This is a
copy of the DOD appropriations report for 1970 (Ed note: See July 90
Leading Edge). It was chaired by Robert Sykes. The testimony reveals
exactly what they wanted - a biological virus for which there was no
known immunity. They finally got it developed in 1972 and started
doing experiments. The biggest experiment was in 1977/78 when they
released it in Africa, which is now lOO% infected. In the United
States in 1978/79 AIDS was released to the white male homosexual
population through the Hepatitis B vaccine. The reason they wanted to
start with the white male homosexual population was that they wanted
to get it to spread very quickly, and they thought that people would
not worry about it if they thought that only drug abusers or
homosexuals were involved. That 's what happened. The Navy goal WAS to
infect 75% of the worlds population by April of 1991. Those are from
top classified government documents. What's interesting is that by the
present rate of infection, 75% of the population will not be infected
by the April 91 target, so what we're looking at is other ways the
government may have of spreading this disease. I am kind of happy I
don't live in California, where those helicopters are flying up and
down spraying for the Medfly.
Whitley Streiber. I heard the other day that he's become a recluse,
that he's destroyed emotionally by the reception of Communion and
his second book Majestic, even though it's an excellent book and I
would recommend it to anyone who wants a good outline on what the
Government did in 194l when they recovered the saucer at Roswell.
It's an excellent book. One of the interesting things about the
book is the two autopsy reports in the back. They are absolutely the
truth. I don't know where he got those - the original reports about
the two aliens. Whitley used to call me all the time in the middle of
the night and chat for two or three hours up until about a year ago.

A little more about Bob Oechsler. Oechsler has done a lot of research
in the Chesapeake Bay area. There's really something big going on
there. Basically, it appears the HQ of MJ-12 is back on Kent Island
or somewhere back there. A lot of EMP research and engineering is
going on. A lot of underground activity - all kinds of stuff. What's
interesting is that about a year ago he ran into Admiral Inman, who
is supposedly one of the MJ-12 members. Bob stopped him and asked to
be put in touch with somebody in MJ-12. Inman took Bob's card and
looked at him with kind of a half smile and said, let me see what I
can do." About 6 months later he called and set up a meeting for
Oechsler to go and see General Stafford, who is head of some kind of
organization at the Pentagon. Oechsler went to see him and went down
some ramps under the Pentagon and into this one corridor where he was
required to walk through what he thought was a metal detector, but
when he walked through it he felt real dizzy and walked in Staffords
office still kind of reeling from this thing. He asked Stafford, "what
in the world was that?". Stafford said, don't worry about it, I had
a headache for six weeks after first going through that thing". Bob
had a lot of strange things happen to him. Supposedly in September 90,
there is going to be another release of government information about
UFOs or aliens. Here we go again. Supposedly Oechsler's going to be
a part of it. Supposedly they're going to show a saucer and a dead
body. I've heard that so many times I don't believe it. Oechsler is
supposedly being briefed on some of the things the government is
doing. He was sent down to Ellington AFB near Houston and shown a
government research laboratory that we have down there that was 40
feet long, 20 feet wide and it was a zero gravity chamber. It has a
very bright light at the top and everybody was floating. Oechsler is
not quite sure where this lab is. He was taken there in a black
helicopter that did not look like any of the helicopters we have in
inventory. It was very smooth and looked like it WAS molded in one
piece. Oechsler said that it sounded like a helicopter until it was
25 feet off the ground and then there was dead silence. He didn't
hear a thing. He estimates that it was near Pensacola where there
was a large platform and a number of buildings. He was taken into the
building and shown the primary SDI facility, which was a great big
room, and suspended on the ceiling was a 25'x25' three dimensional
video "presentation". On it was represented the southeastern portion
of the United States and then there was a grid pattern that came up
to what was represented as 300,000 feet. There were "vortexes"
represented here and there in the gridwork. There were little dots
labeled "ASC's". We don't know what that means. You could see flights
of some type enter these "vortex~ areas and apparently go underground,
but if one went down in a different area, it would split up into eight
blips. Interesting. There were only men in there, no woman. Everybody
had on black pants with a white shirt buttoned up to the collar with
a tie. No one smiled. Oechsler doesn't know what the place was. He was
just shown it and given no other information. He tried to get in touch
with General Stafford after that, but so far no luck.

The aerospace engineer that I spoke of confirmed that Dulce existed
and that we do have a base on the Moon. I have several other sources
that confirm the base on the Moon. They go there regularly. I don't
know what they do there, but it does exist. He also confirmed the
existence of the base on Mars. It's already there.

I have come up with some information during the past month about the
Challenger accident from an individual who has worked at Cape Kennedy
for a number of years. Apparently, the Challenger was blown up by
the Russians. It was a KGB unit that did it. They did it using 1l
Libyans who had access to the protected areas. An explosive
charge was put on the strut that held the SRB to the main fuel tank
and it ignited, banging the SRB against the fuel tank. It was the
only launch were all the Russian trawlers pulled out several hundred
miles into the ocean away from the Cape. There was also a video and
radio link that was held aloft by a balloon, and the night before
the launch the cable was cut so they couldn't get any pictures on
launch day of the SRB strut area. There were also a number of other
things that happened. Apparently, the Soviet Chernobyl incident was
caused by the United States in retaliation for the Challenger
indecent. Now I am looking into that, and I will let you know what I
find out.

I went to a very interesting talk by Bill Hamilton, who's here to-
night, and after the talk we went on a very interesting mission to
check out the Lockheed skunk works near Los Angeles. This skunk works
has done a lot of secret of work. As you've read in the papers,
they're moving Lockheed to Georgia to do a lot of the work down there.
They are also closing down the plant at Burbank, saying that they Are
going to move it down to Palmdale, but we think they are moving
operations to the Tehachapi mountain area, where there already is an
underground facility in the western portion of the Antelope Valley.
There was a lot of activity going on there. We think that saucer craft
are being produced at this underground facility using other types of
technology. Bill is here today and brings the information that the
silo doors at this so-called "Tehachpi Ranch" have been seen to open
and a saucer shaped craft has flown out of it. I would have like to
have seen that Sunday night.

The other day I was over Bob Lazar's house and we were looking through
a classified book on nuclear bomb technology up until 1960, and we
were discussing how many bombs have been exp1oded in space. Up until
1960 there were at least four. The first one was in August 1958 and
was called TEAK. It was A hydrogen bomb exploded 252,000 feet over
Johnston Island. What's interesting about this is that I don't think

we had that kind of capability" in those days of launching things
like that. I took out my Jane's "All the Worlds Spacecraft And went
back and found out that after Sputnik was launched we had ( as far
as the public was concerned) quite an effort to get something up there
ourselves. that Was the Redstone and Vanguard rockets. It turns out
that the first launch was successful but every one after that failed.
We just couldn't get anything off the ground. All that stuff was just
a ruse, because a year later we were launching hydrogen bombs over
Johnston Island that weighed two tons. The public was told that we
couldn't even get a three pound object into space. Apparently there
was a classified launch facility in the Pacific.

With regard to the South African incident, it appears that it was a
hoax perpetrated by James Van Gruenen, who has A history of hoaxes. We
don't know what the final outcome was. Van Gruenen even offered one
producer a chance to meet an alien from the Space Council. This
producer contacted me and I told him to check Van Gruenen's
background.

I got a call from Linda Howe a couple days ago, and she told me that
there WAS A discussion by VP Quayle about reorienting the SDI toward
shooting down an incoming asteroid and that it was in a paper. She's
supposed to send me the article. What is interesting is that we've
heard this story for the last two or three years About an incoming
asteroid. It's obviously under intelligent control, it's putting out
radio emissions. Supposedly it's on the edge of the solar system now,
heading this way. I have at least three confirmations that it does
exist. The code name is supposedly Wormwood. One of the confirmations
came from a friend of s guy in the CIA. They were out one night and
the CIA guy was drinking heavily And was very depressed. His friend
asked him what the matter was, asking "is it the thing that is coming
in from space?. The agency guy dropped his glass and said, how do
you know about that?. That's one of them. If we are reorienting SDI
in that way, that opens a lot of questions about what is going on.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Comments on Berkeley Symposium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 92 07:32:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 58

Just got back from the Berkeley Conference; The Meaning and the Message.
I will make a few comments, and ask others to do the same, to get
a few more data points.

I found the conference worthwhile, but dry. I had high expectations, having
heard Dr. Harder speak in LV last year, so I guess I just set myself up
for some of this.

Hopes that Harder, Sprinkle, and the other members of the Town Meeting
(the first part of the presentation) would speak at length on their
latest research and findings were dashed by an almost universal Q&A
format for the entire day. I found this a very disjointed way for
these people to express themselves.

I had especially hoped Dr. Harder would speak on a very controversial
subject: the Intergalactic Federation, of which I am aware that he knows
a great deal. He seems reticent to do so, making remarks that "a lot of
people wonder where I come up with this information" and things like that.

I understand that his sources could be questionable, but I don't care. I
wanted to know where HE was at with it. He is the one that has hours
every day devoted himself to these studies, and I have reason to believed
that his opinion, however far-out, is at least, well informed and researched.
It's a data-point, to be factored in with the rest of it all that can
be gleaned from other sources.

So the fact that he did not speak at length really bothered me and I was
disappointed, in fact, I didn't stay for the Q&A at the end, I felt like
I had listened to Q&A for hours already. It just felt fluffy to me.
I wanted more distilled information on the basis of his years of
research.

Don't get me wrong, the many contactees presented were interesting to
listen to. The viewpoint that Hopkins and "Secret Life" are skewed in
the negative as far as motives and trauma inflicted by greys may be
very valid and was the main crux of the presentation. They wished to
present ET visitation as a positive experience. In fact, the database
of one of the psychologists presenting indicates that only those with
traumatic childhood experiences relating to terrestrial events (family, etc.)
seemed to report ET contact as negative or extremely traumatic. So this
is a very important idea to keep in mind.

The message of the ET's that were related over and over by the contactees
were more or less:

You are treating your children as 3rd class citizens and could do much better
with them, they are your future, and your salvation.

Stop your gross arrogant ways regarding your planet, and your place on it.
Overpopulation, pollution, etc, etc.

Rough times may be ahead, but it will lead to a better period long-term.


Others that attended, please post your views. I'm interested to see if
I'm way out of line here, or if there is a consensus.

Jeff-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: TALK WITH ALIENS!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 02:24:22 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter K. Boucher) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Claudio Calvelli) writes:
>|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>|> >
>|> > I heard somewhere that there is a law against talking to aliens,  we could
>|> > get a $10,000. fine from the federal govt. for communicating with aliens.
>|> > Has anyone else heard this?  I think I heard it from G. Green so I am
>|> > not sure how true it is.
>
>This applies only to illegal aliens.  you can talk to them if they have a
>green card.
>--
>Peter K. Boucher
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Computer Science Lab, SRI International             Software Engineer
>333 Ravenswood Ave. #EL-237                         [phone]
>Menlo Park, CA  94025                               [e-mail]

Well, if thats the case, I could just cut up a few old Christmas cards
and give it to them. Or does it have to be ALL green? I would think actually
the card should be grey. Green applied only back when people thought aliens
were little green men from Mars. We need to update our practices.

Gregg.


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a4445
From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 92 08:37:57 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 13

John Winston writes:
>Dear People: Please disregard all of the letters behind my name. My
>computer is acting up. I woke up with what I consider to be a profound
>thought and that is WE ARE ALL ALIENS. By that I mean that we as a
>civilization did not originate or evolve on this particular planet.
>John Winston.
Woo, Joh, you gotta stop drinking that Mt. Shasta berry juice.  Besides this
isn't exactly a new idea.  Remember Battlestar Galactica.  I even had a dream
years ago in which I was one of pilots that piloted the first ships to EArth.
Waaaay before Battlestar Galactica.  Keep those aliens smiling! =:0 Colleen
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kevin Randle Comes To Denver
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 11 Oct 92 04:10:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 9


 > Do you have an ISBN number for the "...ROSWELL" book?

0-380-76196-3

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 05:05:01 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 19

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear People: Please disregard all of the letters behind my name. My
> computer is acting up. I woke up with what I consider to be a profound
> thought and that is WE ARE ALL ALIENS. By that I mean that we as a
> civilization did not originate or evolve on this particular planet.
> John Winston.

So?

=Doug

----------------------------------------------------------------------
UUCP: uunet.ca!uuisis.isis.org!doug                Voice: 613-722-4724
DNS:  [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
                      SKAN Communications Inc
      POST: P.0. Box 3041, Stn C., Ottawa, K1Y 4J3, CANADA
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From: [e-mail] (Titanium Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: CANADIANS - MAN ALIVE (CBC TELEVISION) <<-- Read!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 11:40:07 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Lines: 6

Tuesday, October 13th, 1992: Watch Man Alive for a special on "People who
have reported encounters with UFOs." Lasts 1 hour.  It starts at 8pm
over here, but check your local listnings for times in your area.  It's
on CBC nation-wide television.  Hope it's good!

Titan
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris))
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 21:30:19 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>I too recall the Discover article.  it talked about magnetic coil guns or
>something.

>JK

It is commonly known as a rail gun.  It uses magnetic forces and super
conductors to propel objects at high rates of speed.   I am not to certain as
to the accuracy of this fact, but I have heard that they can get a particle
5 or 6 times faster than the speed of sound before it even reaches the end of a
20-25 foot long barrel.  Pretty interesting stuff.  Also, on a large scale such
as 2-3 miles, it could not be aimed well enough to be used as an effective
weapon.  It does have uses in putting sattilites in low Earth orbit, thus
saving on the amounts of feul used.


Later!
C J Rogers

"Now if only we could get Congress to work as well as rail guns..."
                            -- Salis
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12094 alt.alien.visitors:10084
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 07:48:29 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 72

1>+&#$$$$$
%Subject: Two Chicks From
Under Mt. Shasta. Part 2.
  I just found the missing book that was loaned to me by Jeff P.  You may
wonder why I quote from so many books. I figure these people want to get
there information out to the world and this is good advertisement for them.
Maybe I will interest you to search for more information.
  My talking about Sharula being a big hugger is not meant to be sexy.  People
in this sort of business are usually very affectionate.
  Now let us have William Hamilton tell his own story; Bonnie has told me an
incredible story and has related a volume of interesting information  on
Atlantis and Lemuria, Bonnie is sincere, cheerful, and rational, and says,
she is a Lemurian born under the sign of Leo in 1951 in a city called Telos
that was built inside an artificial dome-shaped cavern in the Earth a mile
or so beneath Mt. Shasta, California.
  Bonnie, her mother, her father Ramu, her sister Judy, her cousins Lorae and
Matox, live and move in our society, returning frequently to Telos for rest
and recuperation.
  Bonnie relates that her people use boring machines to bore tunnels in the
Earth.  These boring machines heat the rock to incandescence, then vitrify
it, thus eliminating the need for beams and supports.
  A tube transit train system is used to connect the few Atlantean/Lemurian
cities that exist in various subterranean regions of our hemisphere.  The
tube trains are propelled by electromagnetic impulses up to speeds of 2,500
mph.  One tube connects with one of their cities in the Mato Grosso jungle
of Brazil.  The Lemurians have developed space travel and some flying saucer
come from their subterranean bases.  Bonnie says her people are members of a
federation of planets.
  They grow food hydroponically under full-spectrun lights with their gardens
attended by automatons  The food and resources of Telos are distributed in
plenty to the million-and a half population that thrives on a no-money
economy.  Bonnie talks about history, of the Uighers, Naga-Mayas, and
Quetzels, of which she is a descendant.  She recounts the destruction of
Atlantis and Lemuria and of a war between the two superpowers fought with
advanced weaponry. She says the Atlanteans built a huge crystal-powered beam
weapon that was used to control a small moon of Earth as a missile to  be
aimed at China but their plans went awry and the moom split in two, coming
down into the Atlantic, north of Bermuda, deluging the remaining isle of
Atlantis. She claims their people are now part of a much greater underground
kingdom called Agharta-ruled by a super race she calls "Hyprobeans."
  I met Bonnie's cousin, Matox, who, like her, is a strict vegetarian and
holds the same attitudes concerning the motives of government.  They
constantly guard against discovery or intrusion.  Their advanced awareness
and technology helps them to reain vigilant.  Will we openly meet these
long-lost  relatives of ours? Bonnies says yes, but this is part of her
incredible mission.  Her mission-to warn those who will listen of the coming
cataclysms that will culminate at the end of the century in a shift of the
Earth's axis. After this catastrophe, she says the world will be one, and
the survivors will build a new world free of worry, povery, disease and
exploitaton.  The world will exist on a higher plane of vibratioins and man
will come to know his true history and heritage.
   Science fiction? Bonnie is a real person. Many have met her. Is she
perpetrating a hoax? For what motive? She does not seek publicity and I have
a hard time getting her to meetings to talk  with others, but she has done
so. There has been little variation in her story or her answers in the past
three years.  She has given me  excellent technical insight on the
construction of a crystal-powered generator that extracts ambient energy.
She has given me new insights on UFOs and their purpose in coming here.
Bonnie's father, the Ramu, is 300 years old and member of the ruling council
of Telos.
  So here is my (John Winston) words again. Stay tuned folks. More is to come
later.
Part 2.
John Winston.
st you to search for more information.
  My talking about Sharula being a big hugger is n&w&

,4xNxVxvx%xtxTxKx]
x7x
xx&x(x,<
0Roman 10cpi, cheerful, and rational, and says, she is a Lemurian born
under the sign of Leo in 1951 in a city called Tel
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 07:58:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear People; Maybe you people are right. It might be true that I've been
drinking too much bubble up and eating too much rainbow stew. It might
be that the person that wrote the TV show Battle Star Galactica was a
member of a certain religious group  and was trying to tell us something.
Who knows, who knows.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 00:06:18 GMT
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris)) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>>I too recall the Discover article.  it talked about magnetic coil guns or
>>something.
>
>>JK
>
>It is commonly known as a rail gun.  It uses magnetic forces and super
>conductors to propel objects at high rates of speed.   I am not to certain as
>to the accuracy of this fact, but I have heard that they can get a particle
>5 or 6 times faster than the speed of sound before it even reaches the end of a
>20-25 foot long barrel.  Pretty interesting stuff.  Also, on a large scale such
>as 2-3 miles, it could not be aimed well enough to be used as an effective
>weapon.  It does have uses in putting sattilites in low Earth orbit, thus
>saving on the amounts of feul used.

Interesting stuff indeed, I believe that A Clark worte a book about this.
_The Fountains of Paradise_ as I recall.

But this thread started with attaining orbital velocity with chemical
explosives. Properly speaking, it is not an answer to the original question.

>Later!
>C J Rogers
>
>"Now if only we could get Congress to work as well as rail guns..."
>                            -- Salis

Rich

[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 01:09:05 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Smart People: Boy, what a bunch of comments. Well, I never. It seems
|> like for some people one time is not enough. Maybe some other people
|> have been reading Kebo too long. Will someone be so kind as to explain
|> how to understand what he is saying. I love him and his information but
|> it's hard for me to understand. Maybe I'm missing something. This is
|> not a flame Kebo. I guess I need enlightenment.
|> John Winston.
?????

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:00:33 NZST
References: <[e-mail]><[e-mail]><1992Sep25.17 <[e-mail]>
Organization: Welligton City Council, Public Access.
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Lines: 12

[e-mail] writes:

> WE ARE ALL ALIENS. By that I mean that we as a
> civilization did not originate or evolve on this particular planet.

   There's civilization on this planet ? Perhaps you're percieving a
hallucination ...

Tony Q



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!klinzhai.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: crop circles
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 01:45:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 47


    [e-mail] (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
    are there any books out about those crop circles which were
    popping up in europe?

... there are some books, and some magazines that I know of:

Magazines:
    The Cerealogist, 20 Paul St., Frome, Somerset, BA11 1DX,
        England
    The Circular, 58 Kings Rd., West End, Woking, Surrey GU24 9LW,
        England
    The Crop Walker, 3 Selborne Court, Tavistock Close, Romsey,
        Hampshire, SO51 7TY, England

Some books and papers:
    The Crop Circle Enigma, edited by Ralph Noyes, Gateway Books,
        UK.
    Crop Circles, the Latest Evidence, Pat Delgado and Colin
        Andrews, Bloomsbury Publishing, UK
    North American Crop Circles and Related Physical Traces in
        1990 - available from NAICCR (see below).
    "Crop Circles: The Mystical View" and "How to Measure a Crop
        Circle", MUFON Journal #278, June 1991.
    Summer 1991 Crop Circles - available from Fund for UFO
        Research (see below).
    "Summer 1991 Crop Circles" -- condensation of the above
        report, MUFON Journal #282, October 1991.
    "Once Upon a time in the Wheat", and "English Hoax Update",
        MUFON Journal #284, December 1991.
    "The Circles of Summer", MUFON Journal #293, September 1992.


North American CC organizations:
    North American Institute of Crop Circle Research, 649
        Silverstone Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2V8,
        Canada.
    North American Circle, PO Box 61144, Durham, NC 27715-1144

Other addresses:
    Fund for UFO Research, PO Box 277, Mount Rainier, Maryland,
        20712.
    MUFON, 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, TX 78155

Hope this helps,

Charles
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!psuvax1!psuvm!jkc3
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:22:47 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:

>Dear Fellow Truth Seekers: It is my purpose to tell you what I know
>and have learned about Bigfoot otherwise known as Sasquatch.
>  The first I heard about BF (Bigfoot) came in the form of a story
>told to me by my teacher and Guru, Merele Fagot. It seemed that a
>person had reported that he had been feeding a hairy creature in his
>backyard of his ranch in one of the NW states of the USA.  This thing
>was the normal 8 feet tall 650 lbs. of walking stalking muscle. A lady
>reporter had enlisted the services of a psychic lady and they came in
>contact with the BF in the rancher's backyard. The BF immediately
>by telepathy said to the telepathic lady, "Why do you people want to
>hurt me?"  The lady then said by telepathy, "What do you mean you big
                                              ========================

>lug? I couldn't hurt you if I tried."  The BF then told his story.
=====================================


Oh yea, Like someone would really say "BIG LUG" telepathically and
Bigfoot would understand it.....You're goofy enuff to run for Office!

>End of Part 1.
>John Winston.
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:32:04 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Lines: 62

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:

>Subject: Big Foot. Part 2.
>  We left our psychic saying to the Big Foot, What do you mean hurt you, you
>big lug I couldn't hurt you if I tried (or something like that). The BF then
>said that every time he comes in contact with one of our kind they try to
>hurt him.  Once a young boy was after a rabbit and saw me. He got excited
>and shot me with his small gun (probubly a 22). It hurt but I got over it
>pretty quick. Next a man was after a deer and saw me. It scared him very
>much and he shot me with his larger rifle (probubly something like a 30-30
>rifle). This really hurt me and it took me a long time to get over it. I
>haven't attempted to make any contact with your type of people until I came
>in contact with this nice man who has given me food.
>  That' about all of the story that Merele told me. Next I read about a
>investigation that was down by the University of Calif. at Berkeley. They
>spent quite a bit of money looking into the subject of Big Foot. They found
>out that BF had at one time picked up large tires like they have on grader
>equipment and thrown them down the hill.  BF can run about the same speed as
>a race horse.  Some of them smell pretty bad (but not all of them).
>  After reading a pulp magazine about BF I noticed a book for sale by the
>person they were writing about. The book has a very unusual hand painted
>picture of a BF on it's front cover. The name of the book is THE TRUE STORY
>OF BIG FOOT (Stan Johnson's Close Encounters).  Now Stan is a retired logger
>and he lives with his wife in Oregon, USA.
>  Stan had made contact with a BF and had invited an anthropologist by the
>name of Bob to go down with him while he made contact with a BF. So here are
>Stan's own words of his experience; Bob had told me to talk with the BF
>telepathically.  After three days of telepathic talking to them (the BFs),
>why then I finally told them, I said, "Hey! Listen, It bothers me because
>I'd never used this part of my brain, It's hurtin me and is draining my
>energy to use it." I told him, "Let's talk.  Why don't you just sit down
>here by me and talk to me?"  And he (Big Foot) said, I am sitting
>by"--telepathically--were still talking telepathically. He said, "I'll tell
>you what, close both eyes and hold them tight, and open your third eye and
>look at me.  And you'll see me sitting here; then when you see me sitting
>her, open your other two eyes." So that's what I done and when I opened my
>eyes, there he was sitting about six feet away from me. That went on for
>about oh, a week or two weeks, till finally he invited me to come down and
>stay with him and his family in the place where they have a little home
>built, down there  in Big Deep Canyon.
>  And here's the funny part about this visit which never dawned on me. I went
>home and took my sleeping bag, which I did need when I slept, I went up to
>the mountain and down with them to their home.  They had a beautifgul little
>place built and it was all lined with fir-broughs and stuff like that,
>really sweet smelling.  When I returned, I told my wife that when I walked
>down through there, the moon was shinning so bright I could see all the way;
>because she asked me how I seemed to get down in there since I didn't leave
>there until about 10 o'clock at night, to walk down in there without a
>flashligh or anything?"  And I said, "Well the moon was shining so bright!"
>This happened in Big Douglas fir timber, and if your've ever been in Douglas
>fir timber at night, you know it's really dark in there.  She stood there
>and looked at me for a few minutes and finally said, "What do you mean the
>moon was shining? There was no full moon!" Now, how could they take anybody
>into the woods in the dark of the moon? They must have made the Light!! Now
>how they made this Light, Lord only knows, I don't. I went through bush that
>would actually scratch your eyes out too, when you  get down into this
>cayon.  And I got down there with not problems whatsoever.
>End Part 2.
>John Winston.

Can you say LOoney TOooOOney?  I knew you could!

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10092 alt.conspiracy:18889
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Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:28:05 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

You say you're now back in the real world.....I really don't think you're even
close to the real world!!
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12100 alt.alien.visitors:10093 alt.religion.kibology:4134
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!psuvax1!psuvm!jkc3
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:33:48 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:

>Dear Little Foot People: It's saturday morning. Hold on tight because
>we're just getting started in this subject.
>John Winston.

SO tell me....does your computer have padding like your cell??

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!jkc3
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 23:36:34 EDT
From: Joe Carlson <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Distribution: world
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] says:

>Dear People; Maybe you people are right. It might be true that I've been
>drinking too much bubble up and eating too much rainbow stew. It might
>be that the person that wrote the TV show Battle Star Galactica was a
>member of a certain religious group  and was trying to tell us something.
>Who knows, who knows.

Let me guess your answer to that one...Only the Shadow knows?

>John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Re: Comments on Berkeley Symposium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 04:41:51 GMT
Lines: 14


  The highlight of symposium for me was John Salter.  He expressed the
way I feel about ETs better then I could myself.

  "No creature that is intelligent and has the right values is
   an alien to me."


--
==========================================================================
            Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "VOTE! - use it or lose it"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10096 sci.skeptic:32355 alt.folklore.urban:52133
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!irishvma!rvesterm
Date: Sunday, 11 Oct 1992 15:07:26 EST
From: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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someone said, "it doesn't really matter that the scientists of columbus'
time thought that the earth was round.  what about the common people and
the common sailors?" or something like that, probably horribly paraphrased.

anyway, i can't speak for the common people, but ask any sailor about
the fact that sails appear on the horizon before the ship carrying them
does.  then ask him why that is so.

i guarantee that there is no sailor who is a member of the flat earth
society, whether he has sailed around the world or not.



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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Lear Material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 07:37:01 GMT
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Below and the next couple of messages are some items that were taken from ParaNet regarding John Lear.  Please bear in mind that ParaNet makes no claims as to the veracity of the material.  Lear approached us with the material for distribution over the network back in 1988.  I am also including some additional material for balance.  There is a considerable amount more where this came from, but this will be sufficient to satisfy your requests on this net.

Michael Corbin
Director
ParaNet Information Service

John Lear has requested that the following file be published on ParaNet. It
is our philosophy to encourage debate on paranormal issues, no matter how
controversial, and we welcome his input. The information contained in this file
has not been verified by ParaNet, nor do the opinions expressed herein
necessarily reflect those of the Administrator or other ParaNet staff members.
We can state, however, that John is who he says he is, and has numerous
contacts in sensitive positions that could conceivably allow him access to
information of this type.
-------------------------

                        Statement Released By:

                              John Lear

                          December 29, 1987

John Lear, a captain for a major US Airline has flown over 160
different types of aircraft in over 50 different countries.  He holds
17 world speed record in the Lear Jet and is the only pilot ever to
hold every airline certificate issued by the Federal Aviation
Administration.  Mr. Lear has flown missions worldwide for the CIA and
other government agencies.   A former Nevada State Senator candidate,
he is the son of William P. Lear, designer of the Lear Jet executive
airplane, the 8-track stereo, and founder of Lear Siegler Corporation.
Lear became interested in the subject of UFO's 13 months ago after
talking with United States Air Force Personnel who had witnessed a UFO
landing at Bentwaters AFB, near London, England, and three small
aliens walking up to the Wing Commander.

Note to the Press:
        The government of the United States continues to rely on your
personal and professional gullibility to suppress the information
contained herein.  Your cooperation over the past 40 years has exceeded
our wildest expectations and we salute you.

        "The sun does not revolve around the Earth"
        "The United States Government has been in business
         with little gray extraterrestrials for about 20 years"

The first truth stated here got Giordano Bruno burned at the stake in AD
1600 for daring to propose that it was real.  The second truth has
gotten far more people killed trying to state it publicly than will ever
be known.

But the truth must be told.  The fact that the Earth revolves around the
sun was successfully suppressed by the church for over 200 years.  It
eventually cause a major upheaval in the church, government, and
thought.  A realignment of social and traditional values.  That was in
the 1800's.

Now, about 400 years after the first truth was pronounced we must again
face the shocking facts.  The "horrible truth" the government has been
hiding from us over 40 years.  Unfortunately, the "horrible truth" is
far more horrible than the government ever imagined.

In its effort to protect democracy, our government sold us to the
aliens.  And here is how it happened.  But before I begin, I'd like to
offer a word in the defense of those who bargained us away.  They had
the best of intentions.

Germany may have recovered a flying saucer as early as 1939.  General
James H. Doolittle went to Sweden in 1946 to inspect a flying saucer
that had crashed there in Spitzbergen.

The "horrible truth" was known by only a very few persons: They were
indeed ugly little creatures, shaped like praying mantises and who were
more advanced than us by perhaps a billion years.  Of the original group
that were the first to learn the "horrible truth", several committed
suicide, the most prominent of which was General James V. Forrestal who
jumped to his death from a 16th story hospital window.  General
Forrestal's medical records are sealed to this day.

President Truman quickly put a lid on the secret and turned the screws
so tight that the general public still thinks that flying saucers are a
joke.  Have I ever got a surprise for them.

In 1947, President Truman established a group of 12 of the top military
scientific personnel of their time.  They were known as MJ-12.  Although
the group exists today, none of the original members are still alive.
The last one to die was Gordon Gray, former Secretary of the Army, in
1984.  As each member passed away, the group itself appointed a new
member to fill the position.  There is some speculation that the group
known as MJ-12 expanded to at least several more members.

There were several more saucer crashes in the late 1940's, one in
Roswell, New Mexico, one in Aztec, New Mexico, and one near Laredo,
Texas, about 30 miles inside the Mexican border.

Consider, if you will, the position of the United States Government at
that time.  They proudly thought of themselves as the most powerful
nation on Earth, having recently produced the atomic bomb, and
achievement so stupendous, it would take Russia 4 years to catch up, and
only with the help of traitors to Democracy.  They had built a jet
aircraft that had exceeded the speed of sound in flight.  They had built
jet bombers with intercontinental range that could carry weapons of
enormous destruction.  The post war era, and the future seemed bright.
Now imagine what it was like for those same leaders, all of whom had
witnessed the panic of Orson Wells' radio broadcast, "The War of the
Worlds", in 1938.  Thousands of Americans panicked at a realistically
presented invasion of Earth by beings from another planet. Imagine their
horror as they actually viewed the dead bodies of these frightening
looking little creatures with enormous eyes, reptilian skin and claw
like fingers.  Imagine their shock as they attempted to determine how
these strange "saucers" were powered and could discover no part even
remotely similar to components they were familiar with: no cylinders or
pistons, no vacuum tubes or turbines or hydraulic actuators.  It is
only when you fully understand the overwhelming helplessness the
government was faced with in the late 40's that you can comprehend their
perceived need for a total, thorough and sweeping cover up, to include
the use of "deadly force".

The cover-up was so successful that as late as 1985 a senior scientist
with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, Dr. Al
Hibbs, would look at a video tape of an enormous flying saucer and state
the record, "I'm not going to assign anything to that (UFO) phenomena
without a lot more data".  Dr. Hibbs was looking at the naked emperor
and saying, "He certainly looks naked, but that doesn't prove he's
naked."

In July of 1952, a panicked government watched helplessly as squadron of
"flying saucers" flew over Washington, D.C., and buzzed the White House,
the Capitol Building, and the Pentagon.  It took all the imagination and
intimidation the government could muster to force that incident out of
the memory of the public.

Thousands of sightings occurred during the Korean war and several more
sauces were retrieved by the Air Force.  Some were stored at Wright-
Patterson Air Force Base, some were stored at Air Force bases near the
location of the crash sight.

One saucer was so enormous and the logistic problems in transportation
so enormous that it was buried at the crash sight and remains there
today.  The stories are legendary on transporting crashed saucers over
long distances, moving only at night, purchasing complete farms,
slashing through forests, blocking major highways, sometimes driving 2
and 3 lo-boys in tandem with and extraterrestrial load a hundred feet
in diameter.

On April 30, 1964, the first communication between these aliens and the
U.S. Government took place at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico.  3
saucers landed at a prearranged area and a meeting was held between the
aliens and intelligence officers of the U.S. Government.

During the period of 1969-1971, MJ-12 representing the U.S. Government
made a deal with these creatures, called EBE's (Extraterrestrial
Biological Entities, named by Detley Bronk, original MJ-12 member and
6th President of Johns Hopkins University).  The "deal" was that in
exchange for "technology" that they would provide to us, we agreed to
"ignore" the abductions that were going on and suppress information on
the cattle mutilations.  The EBE's assured MJ-12 that the abductions
(usually lasting about 2 hours) were merely the ongoing monitoring of
developing civilizations.

In fact, the purposes for the abductions turned out to be:

        (1) The insertion of a 3mm spherical device through
            the nasal cavity of the abductee into the brain.
            the device is used for the biological monitoring,
            tracking, and control of the abductee.

        (2) Implementation of Posthypnotic Suggestion to carry
            out a specific activity during a specific time period,
            the actuation of which will occur within the next
            2 to 5 years.

        (3) Termination of some people so that they could function
            as living sources for biological material and
            substances.

        (4) Termination of individuals who represent a threat to
            the continuation of their activity.

        (5) Effect genetic engineering experiments.

        (6) Impregnation of human females and early termination of
            pregnancies to secure the crossbreed infant.

The U.S. Government was not initially aware of the far reaching
consequences of their "deal".  They were led to believe that the
abductions were essentially benign and since they figured the abductions
would probably go on anyway whether they agreed or not, they merely
insisted that a current list of abductees be submitted, on a periodic
basis, to MJ-12 and the National Security Council.  Does this sound
incredible?  An actual list of abductees sent to the National Security
Council?  Read on, because I have news for you.

The EBE's have a genetic disorder in that their digestive system is
atrophied and not functional.  Some speculate that they were involved in
some type of accident or nuclear war, or possibly on the back side of
and evolutionary genetic curve.  In order to sustain themselves they use
an enzyme or hormonal secretion obtained from the tissue that they
extract from humans and animals. (Note: Cows and Humans are genetically
similar.  In the event of a national disaster, cow's blood can be used
by humans.)

<<Continued in next message..>>

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Lear - Part 2
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 07:38:02 GMT
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<..Continued from previous message>


The secretions obtained are then mixed with hydrogen peroxide and
applied on the skin by spreading or dipping parts of their bodies in the
solution.  The body absorbs the solution, then excretes the waste back
through the skin.  The cattle mutilations that were prevalent throughout
the period from 1973 to 1983 and publicly noted through newspaper and
magazine stories and included a documentary produced by Linda Howe for
the Denver CBS affiliate KMGH-TV, were for the collection of these
tissues by the aliens.  The mutilations included genitals taken, rectums
cored out to the colon, eyes, tongue, and throat all surgically removed
with extreme precision.  In some cases the incisions were made by
cutting between the cells, a process we are not yet capable of
performing in the field.  In many of the mutilations there was no blood
found at all in the carcass, yet there was no vascular collapse of the
internal organs.  This has been also noted in the human mutilations, one
of the first of which was Sgt. Jonathan P. Louette at the White Sands
Missile Test Range in 1956, who was found three days after an Air Force
Major had witnessed his abduction by a "disk shaped" object at 0300
while on a search for missile debris downrange.  His genitals had been
removed, rectum cored out in a surgically precise "plug" up to the
colon, eyes removed and all blood removed with, again, no vascular
collapse.  From some of the evidence it is apparent that this surgery is
accomplished, in most cases, while the victim, animal or human, is still
alive.

The various parts of the body are taken to various underground
laboratories, one of which is known to be near the small New Mexico town
of Dulce.  This jointly occupied (CIA-Alien) facility has been described
as enormous, with huge tiled walls that "go on forever".  Witnesses have
reported huge vats filled with amber liquid with parts of human bodies
being stirred inside.

After the initial agreement, Groom Lake, one of this nations most secret
test centers, was closed for a period of about a year, sometime between
about 1972 and 1974, and a huge underground facility was constructed for
and with the help of the EBE's.  The "bargained for" technology was set
in place but could only be operated by the EBE's themselves.  Needless
to say, the advanced technology could not be used against the EBE's
themselves, even if needed.

During the period between 1979 and 1983 it became increasingly obvious
to MJ-12 that things were not going as planned.  It became known that
many more people (in the thousands) were being abducted than were listed
on the official abduction lists.  In addition it became obvious that
some, not all, but some of the nation's missing children had been used
for secretions and other parts required by the aliens.

In 1979 there was an altercation of sorts at the Dulce laboratory.  A
special armed forces unit was called in to try and free a number of our
people trapped in the facility, who had become aware of what was really
going on.  According to one source, 66 of the soldiers were killed and
our people were not freed.

By 1984, MJ-12 must have been in stark terror at the mistake they had
made in dealing with the EBE's.  They had subtly promoted "Close
Encounters of the Third Kind" and "E.T." to get the public used to "odd
looking" aliens that were compassionate, benevolent and very much our
"space brothers".  MJ-12 "sold" the EBE's to the public, and were now
faced with the fact that quite the opposite was true.  In addition, a
plan was formulated in 1968 to make the public aware of the existence of
aliens on earth over the next 20 years to be culminated with several
documentaries to be released during 1985-1987 period of time.  These
documentaries would explain the history and intentions of the EBE's.
The discovery of the "Grand Deception" put the entire plans, hopes and
dreams of MJ-12 into utter confusion and panic.

Meeting at the "Country Club", a remote lodge with private golf course,
comfortable sleeping and working quarters, and its own private airstrip
built by and exclusively for the member of MJ-12, it was a factional
fight of what to do now.  Part of MJ-12 wanted to confess the whole
scheme and shambles it had become to the public, beg their forgiveness
and ask for their support.  The other part (and majority) of MJ-12
argued that there was no way they could do that, that the situation was
untenable and there was no use in exciting the public with the "horrible
truth" and that the best plan was to continue the development of a
weapon that could be used against the EBE's under the guise of "SDI",
the Strategic Defense Initiative, which had nothing whatsoever to do
with a defense for inbound Russian nuclear missiles.  As these words are
being written, Dr. Edward Teller, "father" of the H-Bomb is personally
in the test tunnels of the Nevada Test Site, driving his workers and
associates in the words of one, "like a man possessed".  And well he
should, for Dr. Teller is a member of MJ-12 along with Dr. Kissenger,
Admiral Bobby Inman, and possibly Admiral Poindexter, to name a few of
the current members of MJ-12.

Before the "Grand Deception" was discovered and according to a
meticulous plan of metered release of information to the public, several
documentaries and video tapes were made.  William Moore, a Burbank,
California, based UFO researcher who wrote "The Roswell Incident", a
book published in 1980 that detailed the crash, recovery and subsequent
cover-up of a UFO with 4 alien bodies, has a video tape of 2 newsmen
interviewing a military officer associated with MJ-12.  This military
officer answers questions relating to the history of MJ-12 and the
cover-up, the recovery of a number of flying saucers and the existence
of a live alien (one of 3 living aliens captured and designated, or
named, EBE-1, EBE-2, and EBE-3, being held in a facility designated as
YY-II at Los Alamos, New Mexico.  The only other facility of this type,
which is electromagnetically secure, is at Edwards Air Force Base in
Mojave, California).  The officer names as previously mentioned
plus a few others: Harold Brown, Richard Helms, Gen. Vernon Walters,
JPL's Dr. Lew Allen and Dr. Theodore von Karman, to name a few of the
current and past members of MJ-12.

The officer also relates the fact that the EBE's claim to have created
Christ.  The EBE's have a type of recording device that has recorded all
of Earth's history and can display it in the form of a hologram.  This
hologram can be filmed but because of the way holograms work does not
come out very clear on movie film or video tape.  The crucifixion of
Christ on the Mount of Olives has allegedly been put on film to show the
public.  The EBE's claim to have created Christ, which, in view of the
"Grand Deception", could be an effort to disrupt traditional values for
undetermined reasons.

<<Concluded in next message..>>

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John Lear - Conclusion
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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<<..Continued from previous message>>


Another video tape allegedly in existence is an interview with an EBE.
Since EBE's communicate telepathically, and Air Force Colonel serves as
an interpreter.  Just before the recent stock market correction in
October of 1987, several newsmen, including Bill Moore, had been invited
to Washington, D.C., to personally film the EBE in a similar type
interview, and distribute the film to the public.  Apparently, because
of the correction in the market, it was felt the timing was not
propitious.  In any case, it certainly seems like an odd method to
inform the public of extraterrestrials, but it would be in keeping with
the actions of a panicked organization who at this point in time doesn't
know which way to turn.

Moore is also in possession of more Aquarius documents, a few pages of
which leaked out several years ago and detailed the supersecret NSA
project which had been denied by them until just recently.  In a letter
to Senator John Glenn, NSA's Director of Policy, Julia B. Wetzel, wrote,
"Apparently there is or was an Air Force project with that name
(Aquarius) which dealt with UFO's. Coincidently, there is also an NSA
project by that name."  NSA's project Aquarius deals specifically with
the "communications wit the aliens" (the EBE's).  Within the Aquarius
program was project "Snowbird", a project to test-fly a recovered alien
aircraft at Groom Lake, Nevada.  This project continues today at that
location.  In the words of an individual who works at Groom Lake, "Our
people are much better at taking things apart than they are at putting
them back together."

Moore, who claims he has a contact with MJ-12, feels that they have been
stringing him along, slipping him documents and providing him leads,
promising to go public with some of the information on extraterrestrials
by the end of 1987.

Certain of Moore's statements lead one to believe that Moore himself is
a government agent working for MJ-12, not to be strung along, but string
along ever hopeful UFOlogists that the truth is just around the corner.
Consider:

        1. Moore states emphatically that he is not a government
           agent, although when Lee Graham (a Southern California
           based UFOlogist) was investigated by DIS (Defense
           Investigative Service) for possession of classified
           documents received from Moore, Moore himself was not.

        2. Moore states emphatically that the cattle mutilations
           of 1973-1983 were a hoax by Linda Howe (producer of
           "A Strange Harvest") to create publicity for herself.
           He cites the book "Mute Evidence" as the bottom line of
           the hoax.  "Mute Evidence" was a government sponsored
           book to explain the mutilations in conventional terms.

        3. Moore states that the U.S.A.F. Academy physics book,
           "Introductory Space Science", vol. II chapter 13, entitled
           "Unidentified Flying Objects", which describes four of
           the most commonly seen aliens (one of which is the EBE)
           was written by Lt. Col. Edward R. Therkelson and Major
           Donald B. Carpenter, Air Force personnel who did not
           know what they were talking about and were merely siting
           "crackpot" references.  He, Moore, states that the book
           was withdrawn to excise the chapter.

If the government felt they were being forced to acknowledge the
existence of aliens on Earth because of the overwhelming evidence such
as the October and November sightings in Wytheville, Va., and recently
released books such as "Night Siege" (Hynek, J. Allen;Imbrogno, Phillip
J.;Pratt, Bob:Night Siege, Ballantine Books, Random House, New York),
and taking into consideration the "grand deception" and obviously hostile
intentions of the EBE's, it might be expedient for MJ-12 to admit the
EBE's but conceal the information on the mutilations and abductions.  If
MJ-12 and Moore were in some kind of agreement then it would be
beneficial to Moore to tow the party line.  For example, MJ-12 would
say..."here are some more genuine documents...but remember...no talking
about the mutilations or abductions".  This would be beneficial to Moore
as it would supply the evidence to support his theory that E.T.'s exist
but deny the truths about the E.T.'s.  However, if Moore was indeed
working for MJ-12, he would follow the party line anyway...admitting the
E.T.'s but pooh poohing the mutilations and abductions.  If working
alone, Moore might not even be aware of the "grand deception".

Time will tell.  It is possible that Moore will go ahead and release the
video interview with the military officer around the first of the year,
as he has promised.  From MJ-12's point of view, the public would be
exposed to the information without really having to believe it because
Moore is essentially not as credible a source as, say, the President of
the United States.  After a few months of digestion and discussion, a
more credible source could emerge with a statement that yes in fact the
interview was essentially factual.  This scenario would cushion somewhat
the blow to the public.  If, however, Moore does not release the tape
by, say, February 1 of 1988, but comes instead with a story similar to:
"MJ-12 has informed me that they are definitely planning a release of
all information by October of 88.  I have seen the plan and have seen
the guarantee that this will happen, so I have decided to withhold the
release of my video tape at this time as it may cause some problems with
MJ-12's plans."  This would in effect buy more time for MJ-12 and time
is what they desperately need.

Now you ask, "Why haven't I heard about any of this?"  Who do you think
you would hear it from?  Dan Rather?  Tom Brokaw?  Sam Donaldson?
Wrong.  These people just read the news, they don't find it.  They have
ladies who call and interview witnesses and verify statements on stories
coming over the wire (either AP or UPI).  It's not like Dan Rather would
go down to Wytheville, Virginia, and dig into why there were 4 THOUSAND
reported sightings in October and November of 1987.  Better that Tom
Brokaw or someone else should risk their credibility on this type of
story.  Tom Brokaw?  Tom wants Sam Donaldson to risk his credibility.
No one, but no one, is going to risk their neck on such outlandish
ideas, regardless of how many people report sightings of 900 foot
objects running them off the road.  In the case of the Wytheville
sightings, dozens of vans with NASA lettered on the side failed to
interest newsmen.  And those that asked questions were informed that
NASA was doing a weather survey.

Well then, you ask, what about our scientists?  What about Carl Sagan?
Isaac Asimov?  Arthur C. Clarke?  Wouldn't they have known?  If Carl
Sagan knows then he is committing a great fraud through the solicitation
of memberships in the Planetary Society, "to search for extraterrestrial
intelligence".  Another charade into which the U.S. Government dumps
million of dollar every year is the radiotelescope in Arecibo, Puerto
Rico, operated by Cornell University with - guess who? - Carl Sagan.
Cornell is ostensibly searching for signals from Outer Space, a sign
maybe, that somebody is out there.  It is hard to believe that
relatively intelligent astronomers like Sagan could be so ignorant.

What about Isaac Asimov?  Surely the most prolific science fiction
writer of all time would have guessed by now that there must be an
enormous cover-up?  Maybe, but if he knows he's not saying.  Perhaps
he's afraid that Foundation and Empire will turn out to be inaccurate.

What about Arthur C. Clarke?  Surely the most technically accurate of
Science Fiction writers with very close ties to NASA would have at least
a hint of what's really going on.  Again, if so he isn't talking.  In a
recent Science Fiction survey, Clarke estimates that contact with
extraterrestrial intelligent life would not occur before the 21st
Century.

If the government won't tell us the truth and the major networks won't
even give it serious consideration, then what is the big picture,
anyway?  Are the EBE's, having done a hundred thousand or more
abductions (possibly millions worldwide), built an untold number of
secret underground bases (Groom Lake, Nevada; Sunspot, Datil, Roswell,
and Pine Town, New Mexico, just to name a few) getting ready to return
to wherever they came from?  Or, form the obvious preparations are we to
assume that they are getting ready for a big move?  Or is the more
sinister and most probable situation that the invasion is essentially
complete and it is all over but the screaming?

A well planned invasion of Earth for it's resources and benefits would
not begin with mass landings of ray-gun equipped aliens.  A properly
planned and executed invasion by a civilization thousands and probably
hundreds of thousands of years in advance of us would most likely be
complete before even a handful of people, say 12?, realized what was
happening.  No fuss, no muss.  The best advice I can give you is this:
Next time you see a flying saucer and are awed by its obvious display of
technology and gorgeous lights of pure color - RUN LIKE HELL!

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Lear Material - Lear's Father
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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 -In light of some of the controversy surrounding Lear.txt, perhaps it would
   be helpful to refer to some statements attributed to John Lear's father,
   the late William P. Lear, pertaining to possible UFO technology.
   They are excerpted from the 1978 book entitled "The Cosmic Conspiracy".
   They are presented here merely as interesting anecdotes, which may also
   be helpful to an understanding of what has influenced John Lear.


                          -Tom Mickus


 Excerpt #1
===========

      "William P. Lear, inventor and chairman of the board of Lear, Inc., one
 of the nation's largest electronics firms specializing in aviation, for
 months has been going over new developments and theories relating to
 gravity with his chief scientists and engineers".
   "...He is convinced that it will be possible to create  artificial electro-
 gravitational fields 'whose polarity can be controlled to cancel out gravity".
   "...'All the (mass) materials and human beings within these fields will be
 part of them. They will be adjustable so as to increase or decrease the
 weight of any object in its surroundings. They won't be affected by the
 earth's gravity or that of any celestial body".
      'This means that if any person was in an anti-gravitational airplane or
 space ship that carried along its own gravitational field - no matter how
 fast you accelerated or changed course - your body wouldn't any more feel
 it than it now feels the speed of the earth' ".
      "...Eugene M. Gluhareff, president of Gluhareff Helicopter and Airplane
 Corp. of Manhattan Beach, Calif., has made several theoretical design studies
 of round or saucer-shaped 'vehicles' for travel into outer space..."

   It might also be of some interest to the reader that this author witnessed
 the late William P. Lear making another nationwide statement on a daytime,
 American television program in about 1969-70. This later statement was
 made in response to a question from the emcee who wanted to know what Mr.
 Lear envisioned the next twenty years producing in new technology. Mr. Lear
 told him that a person would be able to, say, walk into a New York "travel"
 booth - somewhat similar to a telephone box in shape; - deposit his fare;
 push a button; and walk out the other side of the booth in San Francisco -
 having been "teleported" across America in seconds! The studio audience
 automatically laughed at Mr. Lear - much to their uninformed discredit.
 Mr. Lear just gaped at their performance in utter amazement. How painfully
 sad and lonely he must have felt at that moment when he realized the great
 gulf that separated the viewing audience from the realities he had already
 witnessed in the laboratory... He was a kind and sincere man; and this
 author, for one, feels a great loss at Mr. Lear's recent death...




 Excerpt #2
===========


      In his book of 1957, entitled, "The Flying Saucer Conspiracy", Donald
 Keyhoe also mentioned some rather indicting news on pages 200-201:
      "On 2nd February, while visiting Bogota, Columbia, William P. Lear
 manufacturer of aircraft and electronic equipment, told a news conference
 that the flying saucers are real".
      "When Lear's story was flashed to the United States by the AP, it was
 a hard blow for the UFO censors. But this was only the beginning. Within
 twenty-four hours Lear amplified his first statement: 'I feel the flying
 saucers are real', he said, 'because of four points'. First, he said, there
 have been numerous manifestations over long periods of time. Second,
 many observations have been made simultaneously by reliable observers.
 Third, there are great possibilities linked with the theory of gravitational
 fields. Fourth, there are now serious efforts in progress to prove the
 existence of anti-gravitational forces and to convert atomic energy
 directly to electricity".
      "This new AP story dismayed the Pentagon, for it could easily disclose
 our top-secret research to duplicate the UFO's propulsion. There had
 already been one hint despite Pentagon precautions. During a meeting of
 aviation leaders in New York, on the 25th of January, G.S. Trimble, vice-
 president of advance design for the Glenn L. Martin Aircraft Company, had
 made an amazing disclosure... "Unlimited power, freedom form gravitational
 attraction, and infinitely short travel time are now becoming feasible', he
 told the press. Then he added that eventually all commercial air transpor-
 tation would be in vehicles operating on these fantastic principles".

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A ParaNet User Comments on John Lear
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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(C) 1991 ParaNet(sm) Information Service.  All Rights Reserved.
****************************************************************
ParaNet File Number: 00169


The following is a response from a user here at ParaNet Lambda
concerning the difficulties in accepting John Lear's statement
on the UFO/Government connection.  This represents on user's
views and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the
ParaNet administrator or any ParaNet staff.  Craig McCann makes
some excellent analogies in discrepancies in logistics.
===============================================================

'Lear Text' Discrepancies
by Craig McCann`

January 31, 1988


I've read LEAR.TXT several times to get the full impact of its
contents.

The first time, I read it on-line and was quite shaken by the
implications of the article as I let it scroll by.  Since the
text was captured to a disk file I was able to re-read it more
carefully and am now "skeptically open minded".  I say open
minded because I believe this universe is teaming with life at
different stages of development and interstellar travel is most
likely a technical matter for the most advanced life forms.

My skepticism arises because although the article is smoothly
written (in spite of several spelling and grammatical errors) it
seems like a collage of tabloid sensationalism woven together with
a few real names, places, and historical events to give it more
credibility.  Adding to my disbelief are a few nagging questions
that come to mind:

     1)  This one has already been mentioned by you, Brad.  How did
'advanced' beings that have no apparent regard for other intelligent
life survive their technical ability to destroy themselves?
      2)  Why haven't they used their superior technological and
medical expertise to synthesize the required enzymes instead of
hacking and slashing other intelligent life forms?
      3)  They 'invented' Jesus Christ?  The intent of Jesus Christ
was a message of love, universal harmony, and brotherhood.  Obviously
not the intent of these EBEs (if they exist).
      4)  Their technology can 'record all earth history' but their
crafts are crashing with no recovery plan of their own.  Why would
they allow our scientists to examine them and then deny the use
of 'bargained for technology'?
      5)  A 'well planned invasion'?  It would be more sensible for
this type of being to crush us back into the stone age and then
harvest and take what they want.  To allow us technology at all would
be a dangerous move.  No tech - no SDI!!
      6)  An enormous saucer was buried at a crash site where it
remains to this day?  Whatever happened to disassembly and
examination?
      7)  Because a stock market correction took place a decision to
postpone a public announcement about the EBEs was made?  Forgive me,
but I find this to be senseless.  If the EBEs exist as this document
describes, an upheaval in the financial markets would certainly follow
any credible announcement of this type no matter how healthy they were
prior to the announcement.

Etc......etc....(yes, I could go on a bit more, but.....)
Mr. Lear, the next time you want to 'inform' me you don't have to
start off with intimidating inferences to my possible gullibility
and load your article with sensational verbiage that any tabloid would
be proud of.  Stick closer to the facts, than you.  Nuff said...-C.M.

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Faq
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (SIDDIQ, AJMAL)
Date: 12 Oct 1992 01:18 MST
References: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Stephen D Murray) writes...
>
>
>Could someone please post the Faq, or mail it to me or tell me how to ftp it?
>I lose my access in a couple of days and I'd like to have the Faq before that.
>
> Thanks to all who replied to my posts.
>
> Cheers, Stephen D Murray.
>       <[e-mail]>  (till Thursday )
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 08:01:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 68

1>+'

Subject: Columbus Had An
Alien Map:
  It seems that today is Columbus Day. Some people like him. Some people hate
him and some people just don't give a hoot. It seems that we as a people are
going through a celebrity bashing phase. Anyone who was famous people is now
being talking about saying that they did all sort of bad things. Your
welcome to your opinion of Columbus. It appears that there was a map that
was in existence during the time of his journey to America that Columbus
could have used. This map is called The Piri Ri'is Map.  Oh yes this year is
1992 the 500 aniverery of the trip of Columbus. The copy of the map that may
have been used by Columbus was made in 1513 and was discovered in Istanbul
63 years ago according  to Turkish researcher  Mehmet Ali Yilmax.
 "It's an incredibly detailed chart showing many important geographic
landmarks which hadn't even been discovered in 1513-like the Andes
Mountains, the course of the Amazon River  and Antarctica." I seem to
remember that this map or another one shows Iceland without the ice cap on
it, showing the country as two or more solid land mases. This information
was not know until modern times when sonar and other electronic equipment
was used to map the land mass.
  This map also shows the southern tip of Florida, portions of  Mexico and all
of the Caribbean islands, Central America and South America.
  But the most incredible thing about this chart is that mathematical analysis
shows it is an arerial view of the southern hemisphere taken from many miles
above Earth, clearly  showing the curvature and proving the world wasn't
flat.
  This copy of the Columbus map was found in 1929 by a museum official in
Istanbul.
  It was painted on parchment by a 16th century Turkish admiral and mapmaker,
Piri Re'is.
  In a note in the margin, Piri Re'is stated that he  had consulted about 20
charts in compiling his map-including one which Columbus had taken with him
on his 1492 voyage.
  After years of being ignored by professional geographers, it was an American
college professor, Charles Hapgood, who finally recognized the significance
of the Piri Re'is chart in the early 1960's.
  After analyzing it mathematically Hapgood determined it could only be an
aerial view whose projection point  was miles above the meridian of the
Egyptian city of Alexandria, site of an ancient library.
  And when he uncovered similar ancient maps, Professor Hapgood concluded that
the original maps were made by space travellers and were then copied by
scholars at the centuries-old library.
  But how did  one of the maps fall into Columbus' hands?
 Where he got it isn't important. It's where the map got him.
  Now these are my (John Winston) words. I don't know whether or not Columbus
used this map but it does appear that some people had the ability to get up
in space some distance to make this map.
Source of Information; Weekly World News October 20, 1992. Page 3.
John Winston
s Hapgood, who finally recognixed the signiicance ogf tof the Piri Ue'is chart
in the ear'


2m}

,
}PA

9cJK,%x
x_xnx]x3xxx        xV    xxQxxUx

x'
x)

9cJK,<
0Roman 10cpipgood concuded that the original maps wsere made by space
travellers and were then copied by svcholars at the
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From: [e-mail] (jcj)
Subject: Re: auras
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>...
>Your nuts buddy!  I can see them.  You can't tell me I can't.
>...

Better check your fly, buddy.
--
                [e-mail]
      "It's a thought!  It's just a THOUGHT!"
            ~ C. Manson
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From: [e-mail] (ANDREAS ARFF)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Bill English
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Think this is a little bit late but anyway...

I just thought of the Bill English posting some while ago.
It's all baloony.
Because it is impossible to interrupt phonecalls the way NSA, as he
says, did. (If it was NSA:-)
The simple reason is: You cannot, at the receivers end, know who makes the
call (within the technology in todays telephone net).
So, if someone made a call to his wife, it's impossible to determine who made
it.

Arff

"Also for the not religous confessor, there is a mystery of higher values,
who's birth mankind - to the last - builds upon. They are indisputible. And
often disregarded. Seldom you hear them beeing prized, as seldom as you hear
a seeing man prizeing what he sees." Per Lagerkvist, The Fist
(Free translation from Swedish)
              --Andreas Arff  [e-mail]--
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From: [e-mail] (My name is...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Comments on Berkeley Symposium
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse) writes...
>
>  The highlight of symposium for me was John Salter.  He expressed the
>way I feel about ETs better then I could myself.
>
>  "No creature that is intelligent and has the right values is
>   an alien to me."
>
>
>--
>==========================================================================
>            Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "VOTE! - use it or lose it"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree with him..

Mary Stanley
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 09:28:39 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 44


>I read about this recently in an issue of DISCOVER magazine.  Although it is
>not Scientific American it does give a bead on what's happening in science.
>I don't have the article in front of me but I believe the gun is an
>experiment an alternate propulsion that would be less exhaustive than using
>the fuel now used send shuttles etc. out of Earth's atmosphere.  (Sorry for
>the longwinded rambling style of this post).  I believe the gun is totally
>experimental at this stage and would not have the mechanism to shoot
>accurately so much as propel.  Don't flame me on this, I'm going from memory.
>;-> Colleen.

Magnetic or electric guns have been around for years. Not until the SDI deal
though have thier potential been examined. The hottest one going is the
Electromagnetic rail gun. One such monstrosity is at the Naval weapons center.
This device uses Lenz's laws of electromagnetic repulsion in that a set of
parallel rails are set in such a way as to have a 'barrel' between them. The
rails are hooked to a rather large capacitor bank (by large, I mean an entire
building of high energy capacitors ! !) The projectile is a small hockey puck
looking thing. The propellent for the puck is a plasma generated by either
exploding wire technology or by superconductors. The propellent is fired and a
few nanoseconds later, the cap bank is discharged into the rails. The puck
begins to travel forward, but the rails collapse so fast, that the puck is sort
of squirted out of the barrle, to the tune of the fastest speed attained by
mass by man, 335,000 MPH ! ! ! Gueniss book of world records mentions the
335,000 MPH, but they don't go into detail of how it was achieved. It was done
with the rail gun. But these things do have thier draw backs. For example, the
rails collapse with such force that they are warped and bent beyond a second
use (so much for the autoloader idea ;-). Second, they take a tremendous amount
of power to operate. But technology is changing that. Memory metals are being
considered for use in the rails, which is metal that attains it's original
shape after being bent. Another offshoot of the rail gun is the 'Brilliant
Pebbles' idea. This is a small hockey puck with a guidance system and an
explosive charge which is shot from a large space based rail gun. If an ICBM
were to be lanched, the tracking computers on the rail gun would track and
program the hockey puck for target aquisition of the ICBM. If these things do
indeed achieve 335,000 MPH on Earth, I can just imagine the speeds attained in
space ! ! ! The puck is fired and tracks to the ICBM, or 'whatever' and
destroys it. But the concept of rail guns is still one of my favorite SDI
devices. I can just see this huge machine gun looking thing out circling the
Earth, just waiting for the firing command. Then thousands of these
'smart' hockey pucks start spewing forth from the end of it. Talk about a
cosmic shooting gallery :-)

-=-=- Wes =-=-=
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From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Re: Bill English
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (ANDREAS ARFF) writes:

>Think this is a little bit late but anyway...

>I just thought of the Bill English posting some while ago.
>It's all baloony.
>Because it is impossible to interrupt phonecalls the way NSA, as he
>says, did. (If it was NSA:-)
>The simple reason is: You cannot, at the receivers end, know who makes the
>call (within the technology in todays telephone net).
>So, if someone made a call to his wife, it's impossible to determine who made
>it.

Not one to encourage paranoia, but...

Ever hear of Caller ID?  What about ANI (Automatic Number Identification)?

The point is that it is quite possible to know who the caller is at the
receiver's end "within the technology in today's telephone net."

This of course says nothing about the validity of any individual's claims
of interrupted phone calls by the NSA.
--

Anson Kennedy                                                  [e-mail]
Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)

"If you don't watch the violence,   \           "If I had been the Virgin Mary,
you'll never get desensitized to it." \                I would have said 'No.'"
-Bart Simpson                           \  -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
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References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in part:
|>   Now these are my (John Winston) words. I don't know whether or not Columbus
|> used this map but it does appear that some people had the ability to get up
|> in space some distance to make this map.
Incorrect conclusion.  It takes no space technology at all to make an
inaccurate map.  The Piri Ue' is full of random blobs, which Hapgood
and other enthusiasts interpret as wondrous things like Florida and
Caribbean islands.

|> Source of Information; Weekly World News October 20, 1992. Page 3.
Which probably explains the inaccuraccy of this post.
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From: [e-mail] (George Jetson)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
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In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>someone said, "it doesn't really matter that the scientists of columbus'
>time thought that the earth was round.  what about the common people and
>the common sailors?" or something like that, probably horribly paraphrased.
...
>i guarantee that there is no sailor who is a member of the flat earth
>society, whether he has sailed around the world or not.

Maybe not today...  Remember, anything can be explained away by
positing the existence of a God who gets his kicks by deceiving us.

Decartes proved the impossibility of this, but that was after Columbus's time.

************************************************************************
A note to new readers:  the weasely :-) symbol is frowned upon in this
group.  Any questions, see Phil Gustafson who will gladly rearrange your
diodes for you.
            - From the AFU FAQ -

    - [e-mail], who is still costing the net
      hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars, every time he posts -
************************************************************************
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From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
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[e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
: According to [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith):
: >I wonder how many bets were taken that Chris Colombus would sail off
: >the end of the Earth?
:
: Good point... NOT.  You're the CRAZYMAN if you think that educated
: people of Columbus' time considered the world to be flat.  They knew
: it was round!  They had known that it was round since Greece was the
: dominant world power.  They were just wrong about its diameter.
:

As I heard a historian on PBS last night say "Only a few of the most
wildly superstitious people of Columbus' time beleived the Earth was
flat."  Most of the educated people even new the correct diameter.
Only Columbus and a few others wildly underestimated the diameter of
the Earth.  Columbus first approached the King of Protugal with his
proposal to sail west to the Indies.  He refered to the matter to his
council of scientific advisors.  They knew how large the earth was,
and how big Asia was, and they told the King (correctly) that Columbus
was way off base, it would be easier to sail to the Indies by going
around Africa to the south.  And that's what they did.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  First, I'm going to
Rosemount Inc.                                |give you all the ANSWERS to
                                              |today's test..  So just plug
[e-mail]                 |in your SONY WALKMANS and
                                              |relax!!
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: These Reptile Creature....Where are they from????
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I guesss that says it all. I have had a lot of info sent to me about the
aliens sending the planetoid except no one mentioned theor planet of
origin. This would be helpful. Even a general area will do.

Vincent
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
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In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>I too recall the Discover article.  it talked about magnetic coil guns or
>something.
>
>JK

I believe you folks may be thinking about LLNL's two stage high pressure
gas gun.  A prototype is to be tested (firing into a hill) very soon in
Tracy, CA (at Site 300); a larger prototype is expected to be constructed
and tested at Vandenberg AFB, CA after the Tracy tests.

It's designed to toss cargo into orbit, reducing and/or removing the need
for large chemical systems (including the Shuttle) to boost cargo-only
payloads.

'taint designed to shoot down *anyghing*; only to boost at best 'dim-
witted' cargo containers.  Fairly small ones, at that...


kbq

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Comments on Berkeley Symposium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:48:42 GMT
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      The highlight of symposium for me was John Salter.  He
    expressed the way I feel about ETs better then I could myself.

      "No creature that is intelligent and has the right values is
       an alien to me."

... an interesting phrase, that -- "the right values".  What exactly
are the right values?  Votes Democratic?  Pro-abortion (yes, I know,
"pro-choice", but let's call it what it is, ok?)  Is a Perot
volunteer?   Family values?   Manson Family values?

   My opinion is that expecting any alien culture to have "values"
even remotely recognizable to us (especially if "us" live in places
like California, or maybe especially if "us" is from California) is
naive in the extreme.

Charles
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From: kevinc@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE ()
Subject: Re: Greetings of the worst sort
Sender: [e-mail] (News user)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Colleen Anderson ([e-mail]) wrote:
: To Stone Cold Gentleman:
: Jeez!  Some males are all the same, whether they're Earthlings or from the 34th
: planet.  You're obviously not very advanced if that's the way you still see
: women and I suggest you obliterate yourself.  (A giant, moist raspberry to you)
: You are neither a gentleman nor an alien.  Aliens have no use only for AMERICAN
: politics,

: You think the world centers on you?
:


.....YA, SO ?!!


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From: kevinc@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE ()
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Sender: [e-mail] (News user)
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Angels ???,......Hmmmmmmm, Well, Ok, could happen. But
why would Angels want to cut your penis ??????? I'm perplexed.

Kc


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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (George Jetson) writes in part:
|> positing the existence of a God who gets his kicks by deceiving us.
|>
|> Decartes proved the impossibility of this, but that was after Columbus's time.

Boy does that comment take me back!  Since you just gave me such a fine
jolt of nostalgia for those old pals of mine from that long winter's
course in history of philosophy, I'll reframe from blasting you for
telling such a porky about what old Rene said.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 12 Oct 1992 20:33:48 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
=>>the alignments themselves? well, if these structures are natural, then they
=>>are of no significance. but if these structures are artificial,  then they
=>>are probably very significant.
=
=>Care to enlighten us at to the nature of this "probable significance"?
=
=assuming that these structures are artificial and thta they are aligned
=astronomically, then this could imply a lot about the cultural and scientific
=context of the architects of these structures.

I see.  If the alleged alignment happened without sentient interference (i.e.,
the formations are natural), then there's no significance to it.  On the other
hand, if it can be shown that the same thing occurred *WITH* sentient
interference, we immediately discard the possibility that it's a coincidence
and imbue the alleged alignment with all sorts of significance.  Right.  Sure.
Tell me, what's the deep significance of the direction from Los Angeles to New
York City?  I'm sure that if you give me a computerized ephemeris and enough
CPU time, I can find *SOME* astronomical alignment involving that direction, so
by your argument, that means we should be able to infer a lot about the
cultural and scientific context of our society based on this "alignment."
That's nonsense.

=it would also allow as to
=speculation as to when mars was last inhabited (assuming that the alignments
=coincide with the last time mars had a brathable atmosphere and free water).

I see.  Let's analyze this reasoning:
    1)    ASSUME that the alignment is significant (as I've pointed out before,
    the "alignment" you refer to is something that would've occured
    SOMETIME for any direction close to the one we're talking about, so
    there's nothing special about this particular alignment in and of
    itself);
    2)  Go trolling through the history of Mars for a time when there would've
    been a major astronomical object involved in the alignment, and find
    a date when such a thing would've happened.
    3)  Use the fact that you were successful in 2 (and remember, you would've
    been successful for any pair of positions even close to what we
    actually observe) to conclude that:
        A)    The alignment was significant; and
        B)    The formation dates from the time we found in 2
In other words, you've simply assumed your conclusion (or you prefer, you've
concluded your assumption).  Doesn't the circularity of your reasoning give you
even a little discomfort?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Organization: just me
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 20:00:03 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>[e-mail] (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
>(Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>>>the alignments themselves? well, if these structures are natural, then they
>>>are of no significance. but if these structures are artificial,  then they
>>>are probably very significant.
>
>>Care to enlighten us at to the nature of this "probable significance"?
>
>assuming that these structures are artificial and thta they are aligned
>astronomically, then this could imply a lot about the cultural and scientific
>context of the architects of these structures. it would also allow as to
>speculation as to when mars was last inhabited (assuming that the alignments
>coincide with the last time mars had a brathable atmosphere and free water).

Breathable to whom?  Why free water?  Why not free Ammonia?

We have built long-term spacecraft which survive in no atmosphere with no
free water.  Can't the aliens seal their buildings after traveling all the
way here?

If I build a grass hut tomorrow, what will its "scientific context" be?  How
about its cultural context, given that I am an American?

What would make any one astronomical alignment more important than another?
I would think that with a hemisphere of stars, we could detect a lot of
alignments.  And why would a space-going civilization care, *necessarily*,
about where the Sun rises in another system?  We don't plan moonbases on
the basis of astronomical alignments, what gives you good cause to believe
they would?

Sounds like your thesis will work best with an air-breathing, space-going
water-based creature with Neolithic religious beliefs and a fascination
with low-tech monoliths constructed entirely of local materials.  Heck, they
couldn't even place one solar-powered wide-band transmitter in orbit...They
just move some Martian soil.

I am skeptical, but then this is the right place for that...:-)

David Pipes
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>  [e-mail] writes in part:
>|>   Now these are my (John Winston) words. I don't know whether or
>|>   not Columbus
>|> used this map but it does appear that some people had the ability
>|> to get up
>|> in space some distance to make this map.
>Incorrect conclusion.  It takes no space technology at all to make an
>inaccurate map.  The Piri Ue' is full of random blobs, which Hapgood
>and other enthusiasts interpret as wondrous things like Florida and
>Caribbean islands.

Right.  Plus there is the fact that Columbus was making his journey
based on mis-information (he thought the Earth was smaller than it was
which is why he was convinced the Americas were India/China).

You would think aliens would get a *map* right.

C Frog
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Subject: Re: These Reptile Creature....Where are they from????
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I guesss that says it all. I have had a lot of info sent to me about the
>aliens sending the planetoid except no one mentioned theor planet of
>origin. This would be helpful. Even a general area will do.

Outer Space.



--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 12 Oct 92 16:23:53 EDT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (jcj)
writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
>writes:
>>...
>>Your nuts buddy!  I can see them.  You can't tell me I can't.
>>...
>
> Better check your fly, buddy.
> --
>                 [e-mail]
>       "It's a thought!  It's just a THOUGHT!"
>             ~ C. Manson

i would like to say that, first and foremost, if someone is courageous enough
to state publicly that they can see auras, they probably can (or at the very
"least", believe they can, and in most cases, the belief facilitates the
ability anyway, meaning that if one believes one can do something, one can
really do that something...).  so i would like to lend my support to those who
know they are not "imagining things" when they sense things in "uncommon" ways.
as someone who can sense emotions and auras, i like to think i understand.

concerning the person who wrote the above strange comment, all i can say is
that:

a) it's "you're", not "your"
b) the person he/she was responding to is a woman, therefore the generic
"buddy" doesn't apply.
c) look who this person's hero is.

my $.02,

Jude :)
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From: [e-mail] (Mark Christiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 22:03:29 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Grant Edwards) writes:

>As I heard a historian on PBS last night say "Only a few of the most
>wildly superstitious people of Columbus' time beleived the Earth was
>flat."  Most of the educated people even new the correct diameter.
>Only Columbus and a few others wildly underestimated the diameter of
>the Earth.  Columbus first approached the King of Protugal with his
>proposal to sail west to the Indies.  He refered to the matter to his
>council of scientific advisors.  They knew how large the earth was,
>and how big Asia was, and they told the King (correctly) that
>Columbus was way off base, it would be easier to sail to the Indies
>by going around Africa to the south.  And that's what they did.

And as a result of a wrong assumption, Columbus ventured out and found
something the others never would have found.  Some great discoveries
have been made this way.

Mark
--
   Everyone spoke of an information overload, but what there was in
fact was a non-information overload.
   -- Richard Saul Wurman
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From: [e-mail] (Larry Klaes)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: One View on Extraterrestrial Life from 1919 (SETI)
Keywords: SETI
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 12 Oct 92 21:09:47 GMT
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        The following passage is quoted from AN INTRODUCTION TO ASTRONOMY,
    by Forest Ray Moulton, PhD, The MacMillan Company, New York, published
    in 1919.

        Chapter 9, "The Planets", Section 174, "Explanations of the
    Canals of Mars", page 288:

        "It is a curious fact that those who know but little about
    astronomy are nearly always very much interested in the question
    whether other worlds are inhabited, while as a rule astronomers
    who devote their whole lives to the subject scarcely give the
    question of the habitability of other planets a thought.  Astro-
    nomers are doubtless influenced by the knowledge that such spec-
    ulations can scarcely lead to certainty, and they are deeply
    impressed by the fundamental laws which they find operating in
    the Universe.

        "Nevertheless, there seems to be no good reason why we should
    not now and then consider the question of the existence of life,
    not only on the other planets of the solar system, but also on the
    millions of planets that possibly circulate around other suns.  Such
    speculations help to enlarge our mental horizon and to give us a
    better perspective in contemplating the origin and destiny of the
    human race, but we should never forget that they are speculations."

        Larry Klaes  [e-mail]
             or - ...!decwrl!verga.enet.dec.com!klaes
                 or - [e-mail]
                     or - [e-mail]

             "All the Universe, or nothing!" - H. G. Wells

        EJASA Editor, Astronomical Society of the Atlantic
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From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Date: 13 Oct 1992 00:43:44 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Mark Christiansen) writes:
>And as a result of a wrong assumption, Columbus ventured out and found
>something the others never would have found.  Some great discoveries
>have been made this way.

And huge amounts of resources have been wasted by people who've taken your
attitude.

By the way, don't you think it's likely that eventually someone would've
gotten around to wondering why storms hitting the old world from the west
didn't bring larger waves?  Or listening to Scandinavian stories of large lands
to the west?  Or just wondering whether it was really likely that such a vast
expanse of ocean (Atlantic+Pacific+America) would have no useful lands?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Exploration is not Technology
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 01:32:52 GMT
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Carl,[you write]:


>And huge amounts of resources have been wasted by people who've taken
your
>attitude.

Sounds like you got passed up on a few grants for other projects that you
deemed ridiculous.

>By the way, don't you think it's likely that eventually someone would've
>gotten around to wondering why storms hitting the old world from the west
>didn't bring larger waves?  Or listening to Scandinavian stories of large
lands
>to the west?  Or just wondering whether it was really likely that such a
vast
>expanse of ocean (Atlantic+Pacific+America) would have no useful lands?

Great attitude!!!!!!!! Someone has to do it......Soh nuch!!!!!! Someone has
to step out on a limb & postulate an unlikely solution. But not you Carl,
or others of your ilk. Let someone else look like a fool....OR A MAN OF
VISION! Thin line is it not? No balls, no blue
chips..........................................

I often wonder what you & others like you will say if the Mars features are
artificial. Hmmmmmmmmm


Rod


Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: A ParaNet User Comments on John Lear
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 02:53:49 GMT
Lines: 102

>My skepticism arises because although the article is smoothly
>written (in spite of several spelling and grammatical errors) it
>seems like a collage of tabloid sensationalism woven together with
>a few real names, places, and historical events to give it more
>credibility.  Adding to my disbelief are a few nagging questions
>that come to mind:
>
>     1)  This one has already been mentioned by you, Brad.  How did
>'advanced' beings that have no apparent regard for other intelligent
>life survive their technical ability to destroy themselves?

    I find this argument easily dispelled. In fact, I find this
sort of "logic test" entirely accademic and rarely insightful. It is
mearly an excersice in anthropomorphism (that we look at these things
and see only ourselves, and  would apply our
sense of logic to a problem or situation that could easily be far
beyond our abilty to gather data or even comprehend in earthly terms).

    So how come we haven't wiped ourselves off the planet yet?
I feel this issue is irrelevant as far as judging the veracity of these
statements by JL.

>      2)  Why haven't they used their superior technological and
>medical expertise to synthesize the required enzymes instead of
>hacking and slashing other intelligent life forms?

Interesting question, but here again, we would proport to understand
the situation enough that we would right off JL's statements because of
something that could easily have diverse and complex reasons that we
could only hope to understand at this point?

>      3)  They 'invented' Jesus Christ?  The intent of Jesus Christ
>was a message of love, universal harmony, and brotherhood.  Obviously
>not the intent of these EBEs (if they exist).

Here again, do we look at everything, only to see our own world view and
emperical reality? "They" could easily be many different races. "they"
could have been Jehova, while Jesus was something or someone else entirely.


>      4)  Their technology can 'record all earth history' but their
>crafts are crashing with no recovery plan of their own.  Why would
>they allow our scientists to examine them and then deny the use
>of 'bargained for technology'?
>      5)  A 'well planned invasion'?  It would be more sensible for
>this type of being to crush us back into the stone age and then
>harvest and take what they want.  To allow us technology at all would
>be a dangerous move.  No tech - no SDI!!

Jesus, this sounds like Vallee to the Max. Such a logician "Mr. Spock"
type of outlook on the world. As if all reasoning in the universe could
easily be understood by an earth computer programer. That's why I just
can't read his stuff for too long. Find a flaw in the logic, based on
an anthropomorphic viewpoint of "what would I do if I were writing a
computer program?" and then continue  to block off areas of inquiry
based on the summary "it's a hoax" post-its stuck all over the place,
narrowing the field, until you arrive down a path that is the only
remaining avenue left.

Well, it's simply not a format that encourages keeping an open viewpoint
over the long haul, and can easily lead you down the path to a myopic
conclusion; one that is most likely far off the mark

>      6)  An enormous saucer was buried at a crash site where it
>remains to this day?  Whatever happened to disassembly and
>examination?

Can we really suppose to understand all the issues that could have been
involved in making such a decision, based on the facts presented? It
might not have been as easy as getting out your "ultimate set of tools."


>      7)  Because a stock market correction took place a decision to
>postpone a public announcement about the EBEs was made?  Forgive me,
>but I find this to be senseless.  If the EBEs exist as this document
>describes, an upheaval in the financial markets would certainly follow
>any credible announcement of this type no matter how healthy they were
>prior to the announcement.

I have done a bit of reading about situations in our current government
that lead me to conclude it is a republic for, and by the all mighty
dollar, so it would not suprise me that most EVERY policy and decision
made by the military ultimatly has an economic reality behide it...

But I agree, it sounds like a copout. It could very well be an official
excuse to appease those that need a reason.

>
>Etc......etc....(yes, I could go on a bit more, but.....)
>Mr. Lear, the next time you want to 'inform' me you don't have to
>start off with intimidating inferences to my possible gullibility
>and load your article with sensational verbiage that any tabloid would
>be proud of.  Stick closer to the facts, than you.  Nuff said...-C.M.
>

Nuff said is right. The way to confirm these statements is not to apply
our paltry logic based on what we read in the NYTimes or see on CBS.
We have to do independent research to corraborate, or dispell Lear's
very distressing, but quite possible, conclusions.

Jeff-

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From: [e-mail] (bernard.t.hebert)
Subject: ALIEN TERRITORY
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 11:55:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: [e-mail]
Summary: Article From Boston Globe Magazine 10/11/92
Keywords: Information concerning Dr. John Mack
Lines: 66


  The following article was taken from The Boston Globe Magazine of Sunday,
  October 11, 1992. As the vice-president says, " I stand behind all of my
  misstatements", so if any are noticed please blame me and not Sara Terry.
  The following article takes up about 18K....

________________________________________________________________________

            ALIEN TERRITORY  by  Sara Terry

    JOHN MACK, A HARVARD PSYCHIATRIST AT THE FRONT LINES OF
    UFO ABDUCTION RESEARCH, IS CONVINCCED THAT ABDUCTEES ARE
    NOT MAKING UP THEIR STORIES : " I ENCOUNTERED SOMETHING
    HERE THAT DID NOT FIT ANYTHING I HAD EVER COME ACROSS IN
    40 YEARS OF PSYCHIATRY. "


 John Mack still remembers the conversation he had with Carl Sagan, back in the 1960s. Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, was intrigued by talk of UFOs and wanted to hear Sagan's thoughts on the subject, which had been the focus of a recent, well-publisized govern-
ment inquiry.
 " Sagan had had something to do with the Condon Committee, which had reviewed the whole question of UFOs," recalls Mack,"and he said, with great authority, 'There's nothing to it. There's no substance to it.' Well, Carl was an authority figure to me, a prominent scientist and a friend, so I let it go."
 And that was that, as far as Mack was concerned, until some twenty years later, when a friend invited him to meet Bud Hopkins. Hopkins, a New York artist and sculptor, is one of the leading investigators of reports by individuals who claim to have been abducted by UFOs.
"I said, 'Who's he?' - which shows you how familiar I was with the phenomenon," says Mack. When the friend explained Hopkins' work, Mack responded, "What? There must be something wrong with him and the people he meets with." But on January 10, 1990 - Mack remembers the date as if it were a birthday or an anniversary - the two men met and spent a few hours dicussing the cases Hopkins had researched. The studies were compelling and unlike anything Mack had come across in nearly 40 years of clinical psychiatr




ic work; he knew immediately that the final word on UFOs no longer rested with Sagan and the Condon Committe. "I came away somewhat shaken and fascinated," he says of the meeting with Hopkins. "It was a mystery. I'd never taken abductions seriously at all. I realized at this point that this was something I had no way to explain."

 In the nearly three years since his meeting with Hopkins, Mack has joined the front lines of abductee research. He has investigated almost
70 cases of abductions and conducted hundreds of hours of interviews and
treatment. He has been the subject of a network docudrama. He has been criticized by the press and lashed out at by scientists. He has organized support groups and professional conferences. He has also become convinced that abductees are not making up their stories - and that their experiences may present a shock as great and transforming to the foundations of science as did Copernicus' proof that the Earth is not the center of the universe.
 " I encountered something here, very early on, which I saw did not fit anything I had ever come across in 40 years of psychiatry," says the 63-year old Mack, founder of the psychiatric department at Cambridge Hospital (which is affiliated with Harvard Medical School) and winner of a 1977 Pulitzer Prize for his psychoanalytic biography of Lawrence of Arabia. "The deeper I went into it," he continues," the more and more information I got that doesn't fit anything else. This has all kinds of implications for




 our scientific world view, for our identity as a species on this planet."
 Typically, Mack says, abductions are highly traumatic experiences, often repressed and usually called forward only with great pain and stress. Almost always, individuals report seeing small, gray beings with huge dark eyes who transport their immobilized subjects to some sort of spacecraft, where the captives are probed in a battery of tests that appear to relate to sexual and reproductive experiments. Many abductees, or "experiencers," report a long history of abductions. Mack has found that parents who




have had many experiences often find that their children become abductees as well. In almost every case he has investigated, he says, people are reluctant to face what has happened.
 " One of the most powerfully consistent aspects of this for me has been the tremulousness with which these people come to see me," says Mack, who has a contract with Scribner to write a book on his findings. "They come to me very fearful that either they will be found crazy, because what they've experienced doesn't fit ordinary reality, or that they'll be found not to be crazy, and then they're faced with the fact that these are real experiences, and what does that mean for their world view, for their fut




ure, for their lives?"
 Of the several dozen cases he has investigated, Mack says, only two or three individuals suffer from some form of mental illness. There is no particular type of person who experiences abductions and no apparent reason why some people are selected as abductees. Among the people Mack has interviewed are a musician, a prison guard, housewives, secretaries, a psychiatrist, college students, a retired firefighter, and a restaurant owner.
 Fundamental to Mack's convictions about these experiences is the fact that, over and over, abductees - who come from all over the country and who do not know one another - tell remarkably consistent stories. Details may vary, but the narrative thread is so similar from case to case that Mack is convinced that the experiences are not imagined. If they were simply made up or were the psychic byproduct of some other traumatic event, he says, the accounts would vary more widely, because of the individuality o




f each human psyche.
 "What struck me almost immediately," he says, "was my inability, as a psychiatrist, to explain how people who seemed otherwise quite normal, quite unremarkable, could be telling the same, disturbing story, in geat detail: of being taken from their rooms, their cars, in fields, into these craft and subjected to highly intrusive procedures that have a unique quality.
 "There's a whole medical-like scenario, which is not known to us on Earth," he says, " and yet it's told by people all over the country, in great detail, details which were not available in the media at the time and are still not in the media in the kind of detail these people reported. And these stories were consistent, one to the other.
 "The thing I've spent most of my professional life in," says Mack," is learning to make clinical psychological discriminations, like,'Is this projection? Is this hallucination? Is this real experience? Is this a dream?' And this [ abduction phenomenon ] behaves like real experience.
 "I have never had a sense, and I trust myself in this, clinically,"he
says," that this phenomenon represents some kind of psychological contagion, that people are influencing each other, or that these experiences are derivative of something they've read or heard from someone else, or that they're reflecting off the consciousness of another person's experience. I've never had a suggestion of that."
 Although Mack's earliest cases were referred to him by Hopkins, increasingly he contacted by people who have read his comments in stories about UFOs, or have seen him interviewed on television. (Mack tends to turn down interview requests, because he believes too many reporters trivialize or sensationalize abductee cases.) After a recent conference at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on the abduction phenomenon, cosponsored by Mack and MIT physicist David Pritchard, Mack was contacted by a woman w




ho had read a story about the meeting and wanted to see him.
 Unlike many experiencers, the woman could recall - without hypnosis -
a variety of alien contacts, going back to early childhood. She could also recount more current experiences of being visited in her home by aliens, who came into her bedroom, floated her into the living room, and performed a series of intensely painful explorations into her spine with sharp instruments.
 More commonly, abductees report what Mack calls a "margin of consciousness," where memory recalls an experience to a certain point and then blanks out, leaving individuals with chunks of unaccounted-for time. Under hypnosis, a practice criticized by disbelievers but defended by Mack as an important tool for uncovering repressed information, experiencers are taken back to the last moment they consciously remember
such as the appearance of a small being in their bedroom or the presence of a blue light.
 As details surface, an anguished mental struggle often occurs. Mack cites the case of a 38-year old Pennsylvania man with a long history of abduction-related experiences. All the man could recall of one recent experience, which began as he was trying to fall asleep, was the presence of a female alien in the room. (Abductees, says Mack, can almost always identify the sex of aliens, despite the lack of obvious sexual characteristics.)
 Like many who undergo hypnosis, the man resisted recalling the experience, asserting that the aliens had told him not to remember what had happened. The man's story, says Mack, unfolded with " tremendous distress, sweating, and pain and anguish." There was also he says, a great sense of shame and a fear of being vulnerable, which Mack worked to dispell, trying to reassure the man that his experience was not a reflection of weakness but something over which he had no control.
 "And, at a certain point, there was a breakthrough," says Mack. "He began to sob. It was so touching, because he'd been fighting with himself and with his unconsciousness, and at that point, he crossed a line and just let go. It was just this tremendous release."
 What unfolded during the narrative was a story common among abductees, one Mack had suspected in this particular case because of the shame and vulnerability the man had expressed. Like many male abductees, the man recalled that he had been taken onto a craft, where he was sexually probed, and a sperm sample was forcibly taken from him.
 Mack says that another emotion surfaced, common among experiencers. "I've seen it so many times now," he says. "It's a sobbing that goes along with a sense of awe. Have you ever been moved by something in nature or something in art or music? It's like you're humbled before God, you're just so moved by the spectacle, by the awesomeness of what's before you. It was that quality [in the man's sobbing], a combination of relief and awe. And the awe had to do with, Oh my God, what an extraordinary thing it is t




hat has happened to me.
 "Again, it's a question of clinicl judgement," he says. "When memories come back like that, I never have any question that these people are describing something that has authentically happened to them. If I do get a case, as I occasionally do, where I feel that somebody is looking to convince themselves or me that they were abducted, I don't count those cases. I don't include them among the authentic ones."
 Since beginning his research nearly three years ago, Mack has established a support group that meets at his Brookline home once a month. In the quiet of his wood-pannelled, book-lined living room, 20 to 30 people share their stories, often expessing great relief at being able to talk to others who have been through the same thing. Their stories coincide on many levels: They talk about the prescence of light and the ability of aliens to transmute into a sheer light force. Often the light is connected with




healing; abductees say that fevers and other illnesses disappear as a result of an abduction. Many say that a vibrating energy courses through their bodies when the aliens take them from their homes. Physical marks are often left on experiencers' bodies: small incisions or scoop marks, which appear to be the remnants of surgical procedures.
 Overwhelmingly, women and men recall sexual encounters and experiments. A wide variety of reproductive stories abound, with many women claiming to have been impregnated by aliens, who then remove the embryo immediately or on a subsequent abduction. Some women say their captors have taken them to nurseries where hybrid babies are being raised.
 Mack is well aware that the stories stretch the bounds of credibility.
And he know that, like Hydra, every theory about abduction leads to a dozen new questions. Yet he is undeterred in his conviction that the abduction phenomenon cannot be dismissed.
 "No one has been able to come up with a counterformulation that explains what's going on," he says. "But if people can't be convinced [that this is real], that's okay. All I want is for people to be convinced that there's something going on here that is not explainable. That something is entering these peoples lives that we don't understand.
 "If we can be in that place of not knowing," he adds,"we're likely to learn more than if we try to stick this here, or stick it there, or if we vclose our minds and try to keep this under control."

 The outrageous headlines are familiar to anyone who has ever stood in line at a supermarket checkout ry good indicator, when people in academic degree programs want to do their thesis on something," notes Mack,"Then you know it's reached a level of legitamacy.") He has also met with a "quite prominent" Harvard physics professor, who was "very interested and very open", but said he couldn't talk about the abductions "around here" - meaning the building on campus where the professor teaches.
 "Little by little, people are coming into this thing," says Mack, whose work with abductees is partially supported by small grants from private foundations. "It's still not the way a young person can make a career in mainstream academic institutions, but it's a very exciting field. I have a kind of faith that if you really are truthful about what you see, and you do your work with integrity, that people will eventually come around. If they don't come to the point of agreeing with it, at least they'll begi




n to notice it."
 Mack, however, is well aware of the fact that many physical scientists dismiss his work out of hand. Those critics, he contends, simply haven't explored the evidence or are too bound by the conventions of science to consider information that is not strictly measureable by machines or the physical senses. When doubting colleagues listen to the tapes of sessions with abductees and spend time with him, discussing his research, Mack says, "they tend to be staggerred by the phenomonon." And while those colleag




ues may not become believers, he continues, "Some of them say 'I've gone from atheist to agnostic on this.'"
 Dr. Edward J. Khantzian is one of those colleagues who have heard Mack present his data and calls it "very, very compelling stuff." Khantzian, an associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School at the Cambridge Hospital, says that Mack "has taken a lot of disbelievers and had us scratching our heads, wondering what is this that he is studying. He's at least made a lot of us stop and think again, which is what he's always done."
 "I don't know what tomake of it ultimately, and I'm basically somewhere between being a disbeliever and an agnostic," says Khantzian, who has worked with Mack for nearly 30 years. "But as far as I can tell, he's operating as a careful clinician in these studies, and that's what I respect. I don't understand it, I'm still dubious, but I respect his right to search it out to the fullest."
 Mack take most comments from doubters and skeptics in stride. But the generally soft-spoken psychiatrist does become incensed by the flat dismissal of abductees stories' by disbelievers, a rejection that Mack says only helps add to a sense of isolation already felt by traumatized abductees. "It the experience of the abductees," he says, " the aliens seem to come from another dimension. They seem to break through our sense of reality of this space-time physicalist world, to come from some other plaqce. Abd




uctees will describe the sense of space aious revealed that man's conscious mind was not all that was in control of his life.
 Mack says he still has no answers about what the abductions mean or why they happen. Although some researchers in the field believe that the primary purpose of the kidnappings is to carry out some form of breeding program, Mack sees a more transformational element to the abductions: an attempt to alert humans to the need for change in their lives.
 Abductees frequently report that during their time on alien spacecraft, they are shown powerful visual images of environmental destruction on Earth. Many return with a passionate commitment to protect the planet. Mack interprets the warnings, and the increased awareness among individual abductees, as an attempt to reconnect humans with a heightened sense of spirituality. It's a quest, he says, best summed up by the poet Rainer Maria Rilke, who wrote:
 "That is at the bottom the only courage that is demanded of us: to have courage for the most strange, the most singular and the most inexplicable that we may encounter. That mankind has in this sense been cowardly has done life endlessharm; the experiences that are called 'visions,' the whole so-called 'spirit world,' death and all those things that are so closely akin to us, have by daily parrying been so crowded out of life that the senses by which we could have grasped them are atrophied. To say nothin




g of God."
 Other civilizations, including Eastern and native cultures, have been far more fluent than the West in communing with experiences that defy understanding in terms of physical reality, says Mack. He argues that the Western world of the past few hundred years may have reached a dead end of sorts - and that the abductee experience may be part of a move away from the strict confines of materialism.
 "It may be that we're on the brink of some kind of major opening to our proper place in the universe," muses Mack. "I think, in this society, we're involved in a major epochal shift. I don't know what the purpose of all this is, but it certainly is some kind of profound connecting of us beyond ourselves."
EOF
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From: [e-mail] (Tony Beaumont)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 11:27:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK.
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Subject: Big Foot. Part 2.
>   We left our psychic saying to the Big Foot, big lug I couldn't hurt
    you if I tried (or something like that)...  The BF then said that
    every time he comes in contact with one of our kind they try to
    hurt him...  a man was after a deer and saw me. It scared him very
    much and he shot me with his larger rifle I haven't attempted to
    make any contact with your type of people until I came in contact
    with this nice man who has given me food.  That' about all of the
    story that Merele told me.

Isn't there a comedy soap on TV with this as the plot!
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 06:24:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Map Experts: It seems that I have touched a nerve with my mentioning
the map. I will have to be more careful next time and not talk about
such things.  It is a very deep subject.
John Winston. Of course facetious is my middle name, John F. Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 06:27:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Fellow Travellers: It's good to hear that this group has not
lost their sense of humor.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 06:31:01 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Dear Big Foot Watchers: I believe there was a TV show about Big Foot
and one word of the name of the show was Hairy.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Comments on Berkeley Symposium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 06:35:44 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

I'm very glad that Jeff came through and gave his opinion of the
conference and some of the information covered.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ezekiel's Space Ship
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:42:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jean Cherbonnier) writes:
>
>I would like to get some information on a chapter in the Bible (Old Testament)
>where Ezekiel describes what sounds like the arrival of a space ship and
>of several alien creatures. The description is so amazing that one could
>really beleive he witnesses such an event.
>
>Thanks.
>
>J. Cherbonnier
>[e-mail]


What exactly did you want to know? If this kind of thing interests you I
highly recommend the book "The Gods of Eden" by William Bramley. It goes
into lot's of this stuff and more. Really good book!


--
=========================================================================
||@@@@||         Denise Solis -- [e-mail]       ||@@@@||
||@@@@||  Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty  ||@@@@||
=========================================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:59:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert McGrath) writes:
>|> John Winston.
>?????

He has that effect on people.  ;)

Larry Smith ([e-mail])  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want,
it is the freedom to do whatever we are able.
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!leafusa!hal
From: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Columbus (was Re: Face on Mars An Other Time)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: measurement error
Keywords: measurement, side bets
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 13:42:31 GMT
Expires: 11/13/92
Lines: 21

> Columbus undertook his journey, he was unprepared for a trip to Asia.  So,
> you see, he was right about the shape of the world, wrong about it's size,
> and wrong about an intervening continent.  Voila, success!  Sometimes, two
> wrongs do make a right :)
>
> >Bryan O'Sullivan                                        [e-mail]

The mistake Columbus made was more elementary.  The Greek texts reported the
diameter of the Earth quite accurately.  The measurement was "stadia," based
on the length of the Olympic Stadium.

Unfortunately, there were two different stadia.  The "old" stadium was
smaller than the "new" stadium.  When Columbus looked up the conversion for
"stadia" he used the "old" measure.  As a result, he thought the world was a
lot smaller than it really is.

Combine this with the impossibility to determine longitude without a seagoing
clock much more accurate than anything available at his time and you can see
why he had reason to think that this new land mass was the back side of the
"Indies."

Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10137 sci.skeptic:32439
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:47:34 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
>the alignments themselves? well, if these structures are natural, then they
>are of no significance. but if these structures are artificial,  then they
>are probably very significant.

I don't think so.  (That refers to the first part)
If these structures are natural, they can be used as an example to point at.
"Remember that Mars face?  Do you again want to make a fool of yourself?"
OK, it's not a real argument, but perhaps it can break through some
defenses of closed-mindedness.

--
thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
...and then the dragon ate the princess and the knight, and he lived happily
ever after.   -- Grandma Addams telling Wednesday a story (paraphrased)
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12126 alt.alien.visitors:10138 sci.skeptic:32443
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:21:19 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Map Experts: It seems that I have touched a nerve with my mentioning
|> the map. I will have to be more careful next time and not talk about
|> such things.  It is a very deep subject.
|> John Winston. Of course facetious is my middle name, John F. Winston
Dear John:  If you post claims of fact to sci.skeptic, you will find
them analysed and criticised.  Hint:  if you insist upon posting
things you read in the Weekly World News, you will continue to hit
nerves.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: FAQ Report
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: arrakis.acf-lab.alaska.edu
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:48:04 GMT
Lines: 21

Hello everyone,

After a month of information gathering and research I beleave I have
enough information for a first posting of the alt.alien.visitors FAQ.
I would like to request that all information that was gathered for the
FAQ to be turned in to me by Friday 17th of October. I will compile the
information and send it back out to those who have sent the information
so they can correct any errors. I will try and get the first posting out
on usenet's alt.alien.visitors by Monday 26th of October. Please send all
information to:

                            Bitnet: Fsdlk@alaska
                          Internet: [e-mail]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~  ...........  .......          .           .       .            ~
~  .            .      .        Nasha tai no kasei!         .   . ~
~  ...          .......           .            .                  ~
~  .            .               Prosperity and Long Life, To You. ~
~  .... xisting . hantom              .             .             ~
~                             .                            .      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10140 sci.skeptic:32450
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:20:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News manager - ulowell)
Organization: University of Lowell
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joshua Geller) writes:
> Well, mars observer has been launched. barring untoward circumstances, it
> should be in position and taking pictures in 11 months or so. with cameras
> of 3 meter resolution, the 'Face on Mars' question should be settled (one
> way or another) within the next couple of years.

[stuff deleted]
> I'd like to reiterate my position: I do not, myself, know if the formations
> in cydonia on mars are artificial. I think the pictures of the 'face', 'city',
> 'straight wall', 'pyramid', 'fortress' etc are intriguing and I eagerly await
> better photographs than we now have. Most people who express disbelief in
> the artificiality of these formations have expressed their disbelief so
> forcefully, that I am taking bets (at whatever odds (favorable to me) you
> like).

What happened to the dinosaurs? They obviously went to Mars and built these
structures.  Why build these structures? So that we'd know what happened to the
dinosaurs.
--Ray Cote
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10141 sci.skeptic:32457
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From: [e-mail] (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:57:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Null Cypher) writes:
>$100 says that the sun will not explode next week
>--
No bet. I can't get my "special weapon" working by next week. Maybe in a
month? :)

--
For those who hate looking at .sig* files, hit <n>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Chester            |"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep
[e-mail] |  all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein
Politically Incorrect      |"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Kevin Randle Comes to Denver
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:13:47 GMT
Lines: 8

[e-mail] (Paul Weaver) writes:

>Do you have an ISBN number for the "...ROSWELL" book?
>--
0-380-76196-3

Duane

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (The Dark Kitty)
Subject: Re: Comments on Berkeley Symposium
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Drake University, Des Moines, Iowa, USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 21:06:49 GMT
Lines: 11

Hmmmmm...as far as calling pro-choice 'pro-abortion' because we should
call it what it is.  I find it offensive to spout your viewpoints here.
Our purpose is to discuss aliens, ufos etc...not to insult other users
of the net.  I am pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion.  If we were to use the
same logic then those who are pro-life would be
ANTI-Choice/ANTI-freedom.
Not a very pleasant thing to do eh?  Let's keep our minds and ears open
and stop gibbering non-sense opinions and insults.

Anthony Clifton

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:50:33 GMT
Lines: 42

About 6 months ago I started getting interested in abductions. I
guess the movie "INTRUDERS" prompted my dormant interest. Since that
time I have been reading. Sofar, I have devoured (mentally) INTRUDERS
by Budd Hopkins, The Omega Project by Kenneth Ring and Secret Life by
David Michael Jacobs.  The more I read (pro or con) the more I
realize that the people doing most of the posting here in
alt.alien.visitors are just having fun. I am not saying that is bad
or harmful its just that they are not interested in the gathering or
sharing of relevant information on this subject as certain other
people that are wandering around in here. There are those posts that
are interlaced with all your fun that are real inquiries or bits of
information from reasonably intelligent individuals wishing to hash
this out in a rational way. These people know who they are and I suspect
that they, as much as myself, get tired of "wading" through all this
other "stuff" to get the meat.

I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
or government conspiracies.

Its is boldly appearant to me that alt.alien.visitors needs to split.
Lets leave these bozos to their wild tales of entertainment and go
somewhere where we can have more "MEAT" to feed on. I haven't the
faintest idea how to create a group and I don't know what we should
name it. I am sure some interested party would be willing to help.
Anyway, I will write a FAQ for it (with the help of others, I am
sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff". All
in favor...

[e-mail]



--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <YeqoSLi00iUyE6PuR=@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:03:03 -0400
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Use of 2-mile gun
Lines: 10


Couldn't they use this 2-mile gun to shoot nuclear waste and other earth
wastes like from garbage dumps out into space, since the gun would be a
farily cheeper method of doing this than if chemical propellant
spacecrafts were to be used.  And you don't need as many resources as
spaceships, since you can probably power the gun with nuclear power
which is not a problem?



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!noao!arizona!naucse!jlg
From: [e-mail] (James Gibson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:36:44 GMT
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ
Lines: 14

I agree with the statement that if people want a
SERIOUS discussion of the issues of abductions and
contacts, a seperate area should be created for that
purpose.  This way, eductaed debate could take place
without New Age propaganda being tossed around.

I have also been reading up on the subject and (IMHO)
believe that enough cases of abductions are valid
to encourage honest debate.

[e-mail]

-----
What blue light?
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10147 sci.skeptic:32466 alt.folklore.urban:52332
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: mars observer, citys or rocks, confirmation one way or the other, side bets
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 00:44:09 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stanley Friesen) writes:
>|That is where I think that Columbus gets the credit, IMHO.
>
>The sailors *knew* the Earth was round.  You can *see* ships dip below
>the horizon in the distance (at least with a telescope, which they had).

Nope. The telescope wasn't invented until approx 1600, Galileo first
used it around 1610. Columbus was more than a century earlier.

Of course, you CAN see ships (or islands or mountains) dip below the
horizon even without one.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
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From: [e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: sci.astro,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 01:14:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>                            UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan

Bob, can you post this stuff to alt.alien.visitors and leave the
astronomers alone? In the meantime, I have a couple of comments
and have set the followup-to field. Please respect it.

>                I should think that by now he would have heard about the
>           Roswell Incident in which UFO WRECKAGE and ALIEN BODIES were
>           found on a ranch (in New Mexico, I think), gathered up by the
>           U.S. military, and hidden away in an Air Force hanger
>           somewhere.

Perhaps the New Mexico stuff is a hoax? Do you have more knowledge of
this wreckage than Carl Sagan does? Perhaps you've seen it yourself?

>        The wreckage included materials NOT KNOWN on Earth,

Different elements? Different colors? Different alloys? Different flavors?
How was it determined that they were NOT KNOWN on Earth?

> and some of it even had ALIEN SYMBOLS written on it.

Hmm. What makes a symbol ALIEN, as opposed to human produced? Can you
show me a symbol that must have been made by an alien, that couldn't
be faked by a human?

>           All of this was witnessed by many People, both civilian and
>           military.  A couple of years ago, the TV program "Unsolved
>           Mysteries" showed an excellent segment about the incident.

Sigh. Carl Sagan on TV isn't believable, but "Unsolved Mysteries" is.
If Sagan were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave. As it is, he probably
just lost his appetite.
--
         Tarl Neustaedter    [e-mail]
         Marlboro, Mass.    Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nevada.edu!jimi!equinox!pyramid!malc
From: [e-mail] (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: aliens are from hell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 00:10:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Xinaian Tourist Bureau
Lines: 11

-I have read articles (all religious) which say that the UFO phenomenom's
-seen around the world are actually demons (from hell...you know, the hot
-place)
-
[e-mail]
         ^^^^^^^^
Hee.
--
Malcolm L. Carlock                      Internet:  [e-mail]
                                        UUCP:      unr!malc
                                        BITNET:    malc@equinox
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 18:32:53 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 50

Subject: Two Chicks From Under Mt. Shasta. Part 3.
  Many tunnels are unsafe and closed off. All tube transit tunnels are
protected and are designed to eject uninvited guest.
  The following is a question and answer session between Mr. Hamnilton and
Bonnie; Q. Were there ten races on Lemuria?
A. They were called sub-races. There was only one race.  Q. Can you date that?
A. That was approximately 200,000 years ago. Q. You once said that the early
Lemurians came from the planet Aurora? A. Yes, and at that time the sun (of
Earth) was giving off entirely too much radiation, resulting in shorter live
spans.  The Hyprobeans went inside this planet.  They entered at the polar
entrances, inside of where there is another sun which has no radioactive
effect.  These people still live there in the major city of Shamballa.  They
are still ruled by the hereditary King of the World. The people who remained
on top degenerated into what we call the Fourth Race.
  Q. Did they continue to degenerate? A. They contnued to degenerate.  There
came to be more diffences in the races.  They started mental degeneration on
the point of warring on each other.  before, fighting was unheard of.
  Q. Did they have technology at that time? A. At that time, the technology
was quite high.  The Lemurians started in stature from about 12 feet to
about nine feet.  The fourth race was about nine feet tall.  The people
started taking on the color of the land.  The Atlantean skins were taking on
a reddish hue. Asian and Lemurian skins took on a yellowish hue. (Note: Adam
means red-man!)
 Q. OK, so we had some kind of war going on at that time? A. Right!,, The
forth race.  We started to degrade into the fifth race at the time the war
started, approximately 25,000 years ago. At this time Atlantis close to
break away from the Motherland Mu. Atlantis was getting more and more
vindictive.  They were living under the Law of the One. The Lemurians were
the major race at this time which had developed into the Uighers, the
Naga-Mayas and the Quetzelcoatls. The Quetzels at this time started leaving
Lemuria in droves.
  Q. Where did they go? A. To North America, then on to the Scandinavian
countries. Some of them went south into Central and South America and some
of the descnedants are still there.  Explorers have brought back records of
white Indians (true).
  Q. What sent Lemuria to the bottom-a war or natural catastrophe. A. It was
the blowing out of Archean gas chambers.  When the Earth was forming, huge
gas pockets were formed, cavities within the Earth, some of which were a few
feet wide, but thousands of miles long.  The scientists started detecting
the weakening of the Archean gas chambers on their instruments.  This was
about 15,000 year ago and at that time the Earth's magnetic field was
getting very erratic. Q. Did you have contact with extraterrestrials at that
time? A. At that time we were still in contact with the Federation. Lemuria
and Atlantis were both members of the Federation. Q. Did they have air
travel and space travel? A. Yes, they did. Atlantis and Lemuria could both
travel to other planets. Q. Do you know who Quetzelcoatl and Viracocha were?
A. Quetzelcoatl was Venusian. Viracocha was a Lemurian High Priest who went
to South America upon the destruction of Lemuria.
End Part 3.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10151 alt.conspiracy:18980 alt.activism:33746 sci.skeptic:32470 misc.headlines:24548
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From: [e-mail] (RAVIKUMAR A. SHAH)
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News File Owner)
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Florida State University Computing Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 OCT 92 21:33:09
Lines: 39

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ray Jones) writes...
>[e-mail] (Earth-daughter) writes:
>
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (ken
>>
>> the only use for ti kwon leep is self defense. you know who said that?
>> Ki Lo Ni, the Great Teacher.
>>
>> oh, yeah?  well,
>> >The best defense is a good offense;
>> you know who said that?  Mel, the cook on "Alice!"
>>
>>
>> shannon the mouthy pushy ranting broad channeling the Frantics.
>>
>> >Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
>> >Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        Abstract Arts BBS 386-7907
>> >P.O. Box 833875                     *        Severity with oneself is herois
>> >Richardson, TX 75083-3875           *        --A.G.Sertillanges (France, 194
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>When you reply to this message, how about NOT CROSS-POSTING to the
>"alt.alien.visitors" newsgroup?  I am sure many of you have different
>software, but I am sure most (if not all) software packages have the
>ability to change the groups a message is posted to.  Try this:
>"follow newsgroup1, newsgroup2, etc.".  That may not be the commands
>you will have to use, but I am sure there is a like command.
>
>Someone began cross-posting messages concerning gun control to the
>alt.alien.visitors group and others simply reply to same without
>changing any of the groups the messages are posted to.  I am guilty
>of same.  Let's all try to be a little more considerate of others.
>
>******************************************************************************
>"Camelot" BBS        [e-mail]
>PRIVATE SYSTEM
>Fidonet address        [e-mail]
>VOICE #            504-436-1826
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (DON KAUFFMAN)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 53
Sender: [e-mail] (UNT USENet Adminstrator)
Organization: School of Library & Info Sci, UNT
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 02:17:29 GMT

[e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>Subject: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy

    Have you tried decaf?

>Its is boldly appearant to me that alt.alien.visitors needs to split

    It is boldly apparent to me that you need to pick up a
    dictionary.

>Lets leave these bozos to their wild tales of entertainment and go

    How can you possibly tell the difference between
    real talk of alien visitors and wild tales of entertainment?

    I think you'll find that the alt.alien.visitor reader
    is looking for both, and that if you start a new group,
    the same "bozos" will migrate there as well.

>somewhere where we can have more "MEAT" to feed on. I haven't the

    Am I reading this correctly?  You want to start a group
    where you can talk about eating alien visitors?

>faintest idea how to create a group and I don't know what we should
>name it. I am sure some interested party would be willing to help.
>Anyway, I will write a FAQ for it (with the help of others, I am
>sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
>some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff". All
>in favor...
>

    NAY!!!
    Is there any way that we can block this nonsense?
    A peaceful resistance?

>Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
>their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
>planet.

    You'll only eat them if they're not friendly?
    Do you eat cows?  Has any cow ever been particularly
    unfriendly to you?  Why do you want to eat these aliens?
    Have you heard something about their meat being especially
    tasty?  If so, what kind of meat here on earth is comparable?

    Oh, I see.  You don't want to eat them, just to blow them.

>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.

    Huh?  Is this supposed to be funny?

    Do you know Gary?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (DON KAUFFMAN)
Subject: Re: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 21
Sender: [e-mail] (UNT USENet Adminstrator)
Organization: School of Library & Info Sci, UNT
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 02:37:43 GMT

[e-mail] (James Gibson) writes:
>Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage....

>I agree with the statement that if people want a
>SERIOUS discussion of the issues of abductions and
>contacts, a seperate area should be created for that
>purpose.  This way, eductaed debate could take place
>without New Age propaganda being tossed around.

    If by an "educated" debate you mean one
    in which those involved can't spell, you
    and the gentleman whose idea this schism
    was are certainly welcome to it.

>I have also been reading up on the subject and (IMHO)
>believe that enough cases of abductions are valid
>to encourage honest debate.

    As opposed to dishonest debate?

>[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!ames!data.nas.nasa.gov!mustang.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!magney
From: kanga.caltech.edu!magney (Michael Agney)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Face on Mars An Other Time
Date: 14 Oct 1992 00:09:04 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.caltech.edu
Originator: magney@kanga

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Ata -
FSO) writes:
    .
    .
    .
>
> I've heard that same thing but you know, it really doesn't matter
whether
> scientists of those days thought the earth was flat or not.  What did
> the common sailors and common folk think in those days.  How do you get
a
> crew together to face their commonly held fears and brave the Atlantic?
> That is where I think that Columbus gets the credit, IMHO.
>

Just a thought, but common sailors very well might have believed the earth
was round, particularly if they traveled very far from their home port,
because they could observe that they could not see their destination from
their point of origin but had to come fairly close.  Then, their
destination seemed to rise from the horizon and approach.

Admittedly, they might not have interpreted it right, but perhaps some
sailor had a friend who had once heard some scientist-type person say
something about the earth being round, and put two and two together.

(Sorry about the confusing sentence structure.  Someone [Pascal?] once
wrote in a letter something like "I have made this letter long only
because I have lacked time to make it shorter.")

Mike Agney
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 02:34:40 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>About 6 months ago I started getting interested in abductions. I

Yeh, well JW has about 30 years on you...

>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>or government conspiracies.
>
>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.

Doesn't sound very professional to me.

DON'T assume to draw parameters for me or anyone else in this group. It
is unmoderated for a REASON. I agree with some of what you said about
wading thru people that are not serious about posting real information
here, but don't be an ASSHOLE.

I, JW, GS, and anybody else who wants to share in a sincere way has
a voice here.

Jeff-

(.sig-less and proud of it. Kids, go ahead and do this at home;-)

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From: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:03:16 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Lines: 45

I agree with Gregg Brown's remarks about this newsgroup.  I came to
this newsgroup by the same route that Gregg did, or so it would seem,
having read the books by Strieber, Hopkins, Good, Ring, Jacbos, et al.
Their material is facinating, as are a very few of the articles posted
here in alt.alien.visitors.  However, most of the articles in a.a.v
are off the subject, and it is tedious to wade through them.

One solution, as Gregg suggested, would be to start another newsgroup
for those of us who are interested in information about the alien/ufo
stuff.  However, the alien/ufo stuff is precisely what this newsgroup
was created for, no?  If we do start another newsgroup, what will keep
unwanted articles from appearing there as well?

My preference would be to persuade contributors to discipline
themselves.  If your article falls in one of the following categories,
many of us think it would be better to find some other place for it:

(1) Articles that are clearly off the subject.  This would include
    almost any discussion of abortion, and a lot more besides.

(2) Most articles that contain a statement of opinion and nothing
    else, usually regarding some point in a previous article.
    Example: A long section of material quoted from a previous
    article, followed by "I agree" or words to that effect.  When you
    post an article, imagine that you are speaking to a group of 5000
    people, and ask yourself whether you think they are all truly
    interested in whether you personally agree with some particular
    thing someone else said previously.

(3) Articles that consist of either a joke or a statement of ridicule
    and nothing else.  These articles are usually especially punitive
    to us readers, because they typically consist of many lines of
    quoted material followed by just one or two lines of original
    material, usually some kind of joke that probably seemed
    frightfully amusing to its creator at the time but that has no
    entertainment value for anyone else.

I realize that to some extent this article sets out rules about what
not to say, and that what I propose might therefore be viewed by some
as a form of censorship, and I am sorry about that.  I hope we all
work together to improve this newsgroup.

Christopher Schmidt
Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
[e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: TOPS of MOPS -DAY 1
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 13 Oct 92 10:07:52 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 37

Well if all goes as planned in about 2Hours 15 minutes on UDC Oct 12
19.00 UTC NASA's SETI search(I call it TOPS of MOPS) should commence
at Arecibo radio telescope in Puerto Rico & the Goldstone Tracking Facility
near Barstow California.
I'm not sure if all the info received is retained & how confident those
involved are that they would not delete/dismiss any important data but
something that worrys me is..

How exactly & when will data from the Search be made public.Not only
any verified ETOI generated microwave signal/s but any other data that
might be usefull to astronomers.for one reason can we be sure that those
now involved would recognise an artificial created signal frombeyond
Pioneer 10.Might not someone/s out of the science loop(so to speak)
be with the right way even with data thought of no promise.
With the high data rates coming in what verification procedures are
their that no data will be lost for good.Of course we dont know what
may have been missed so far but will it be no excuse if the main chance
is missed.
  What public release procedures are now in force.Asides from the conspirists
  theirs plenty of room for the skeptics to point the bone & ask are
  the procedures near enough to foolproof.In the coming days/weeks/months/
  years or however long it is I wonder if the opposite of the purpose
  will be in force as so far seems to be the case(is it any wonder the
  conspirists shout coverup).Well time will tell-unless it wont
     but I wont hold my breath.After all no matter how much intelligence
     their may be beyond the Earth in the last words of the Meaning
     of Life...............well we all know don't we?.

well I'm off to listen to Douglas Adams on the BBCWS on the 5th book
of The Guide.(Hope it's more than coincidence)

******************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR JUST WAITING TO SEAL
THE ROYALTY DEAL?
*******************************************************

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!manson
From: [e-mail] (Bob Manson)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: photon.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 05:06:26 GMT
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes:
>Their material is facinating, as are a very few of the articles posted

I find it impossible to tell the difference between people being
utterly deadly serious about their 'UFO' experiences and people making
up stuff.  In fact, if I didn't know any better (and I don't), I would
guess that everyone is either deluding themselves or trying to delude
everyone else. I think "BoB" would approve of this behavior, myself,
but who knows? I'm eager to read for amusement value, but I'm sure as
hell not going to take you seriously.

>unwanted articles from appearing there as well?

"Unwanted"? You're looking for everyone to take the same view of silly
abduction stories as you do? Sorry, won't happen. If you're talking
about people posting articles totally unrelated to non-Earth-based
life, I agree there; mystics, Pleadiean-believers, people that drink
milk and John "I go to sleep by using nitrous" Winston would have to
fall into this class. But then, if you believe the abduction stories,
how can you argue against folks like John that tune into
randomly-wired portions of their brains? Not that there's anything
wrong with that, but there's a limit to how much noise one can
read about.

Maybe there needs to be another group, a la "alt.wierd", for people
that see voices and hear things.

Another alternative is to use kill files judiciously; you can figure
out who's doing the noise generation and who isn't pretty easily.

>My preference would be to persuade contributors to discipline

This is usenet. People apparently need an outlet for this kind of
silliness. Maybe another one needs to be provided. I donno. It's
really clear that since I read this group, it must be wierd. Usenet
isn't here to provide respect to your opinions or beliefs, just like
the rest of life.

>(2) Most articles that contain a statement of opinion and nothing

Almost any abduction story, UFO sighting, or what-have-you is a matter
of opinion, unless you've got absolute proof (an alien would be just
fine, thank you, or an intact ship; even elements unknown to Earth
science would work), especially proof that doesn't disappear 3 seconds
after someone looks at it. Or a missing body part ;) Otherwise, it
becomes a case of "this unreliable human witness thinks they saw
something that might have been anything". I've seen "UFO-like things"
in the sky, but I'm not about to classify them as UFOs; could've been
anything. Shoot, I just saw a light up in the sky. Probably an
airplane, but how can I be sure? Might've been part of "the
Conspiracy". Maybe they've finally gotten smart and started making
their craft look like airplanes rather than saucers.

Actually, the Con doesn't really work that way; they're a little more
discreet. For example, their memory-washing techniques actually work,
rather than the "half-work" these other moronic aliens do. And they
use stealth UFOs rather than the brlliantly-lit ones. And when they
do have to show a light, they do it during the day, so it's not quite
so obvious.

A SubGenius rant would be appropriate right now, but...
                            Bob
[e-mail] (I type this in each time; good exercise.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ojala Nikolas)
Subject: Ezekiel's spaceship
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 10:21:03 GMT
Lines: 22



[e-mail] (Jean Cherbonnier) wrote:

>I would like to get some information on a chapter in the Bible (Old Testament)
>where Ezekiel describes what sounds like the arrival of a space ship and
>of several alien creatures. The description is so amazing that one could
>really beleive he witnesses such an event.

>Thanks.

Erich Von Daniken thought this and Joseph Blumrich wrote a book about
this subject. You might want to read the book. It was published in
early 70's.



Nikolas
--
"   Nikolas Petri Ojala      # Static truth is     # My home address is:   "
" An Engineering Student of  # dead truth and only # Finninmaenkatu 4 H 75 "
"Tampere University of Tech. # dead truth can be   # 33710 Tampere Finland "
"   [e-mail]       # held as a theory.   # Tel: 931 - 186 169    "
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steven Vere)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 06:52:38 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes:
>I agree with Gregg Brown's remarks about this newsgroup.  I came to
>this newsgroup by the same route that Gregg did, or so it would seem,
>having read the books by Strieber, Hopkins, Good, Ring, Jacbos, et al.
>Their material is facinating, as are a very few of the articles posted
>here in alt.alien.visitors.  However, most of the articles in a.a.v
>are off the subject, and it is tedious to wade through them.
>
>One solution, as Gregg suggested, would be to start another newsgroup
>for those of us who are interested in information about the alien/ufo
>stuff.  However, the alien/ufo stuff is precisely what this newsgroup
>was created for, no?  If we do start another newsgroup, what will keep
>unwanted articles from appearing there as well?
>
>My preference would be to persuade contributors to discipline
>themselves.

   Bozos and crackpots are not going to discipline themselves.  As
someone else suggested, most will simply migrate to the new newsgroup.
I happen to believe that some of these people are professional signal
jammers.  The best bozo-crackpot filter is the kill file, which you
can tune and customize to filter out the noise.

--
_____________________________________________________________________
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |

  Steven Vere                                       [e-mail]
  Boulder Creek, California                [e-mail]
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |
_____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nwnexus!jhgrud!gtenmc!wall
From: [e-mail] (David Wall)
Subject: Re: Discoveries?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: GTE Telecom, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 19:12:35 GMT
Lines: 23

Sorry for NOT being politically correct, but your premise is incorrect.
It is TRUE that Columbus discovered he was lost on his way to India, but
that isn't the "only thing" he discovered.  "Discovery" does not require that
nobody else knows something first; for example, a child can discover that fire
burns, and I can discover a great, new Thai restaurant.  Discovery is a
reflection by the discoverer in which he realizes that he did not know something
before.

Also, finding a series of beautiful islands and starting the European world's
discovery of North and South America is no small feat, especially considering
the foul and polluted Europe that existed then.  While it is certainly tragic
and appalling that the outcome was so devastating to the indigenous people,
that does not mean Columbus did any less (in fact, if he did less, perhaps
Native Americans would not have suffered so much).  Nations conquering other
nations is a very old (and honored) tradition.  Native American tribes
conquered each other, Europeans conquered each other, Asians and Africans
all conquered each other.  Do not fault Columbus because they were the most
successful at conquering other peoples.  It is tragic for the vanquished, but
triumph for the victor.

Besides, I don't get Columbus Day off anymore, so to hell with all of them!

D.Wall
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From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 08:45:49 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 55

Gregg Brown writes:
(Words deleted)
>The more I read (pro or con) the more I
>realize that the people doing most of the posting here in
>alt.alien.visitors are just having fun. I am not saying that is bad
>or harmful its just that they are not interested in the gathering or
>sharing of relevant information on this subject as certain other
>people that are wandering around in here. There are those posts that
>are interlaced with all your fun that are real inquiries or bits of
ia>nformation from reasonably intelligent individuals wishing to hash
>this out in a rational way. These people know who they are and I suspect
>that they, as much as myself, get tired of "wading" through all this
>other "stuff" to get the meat.

>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>or government conspiracies.

>Its is boldly appearant to me that alt.alien.visitors needs to split.
>Lets leave these bozos to their wild tales of entertainment and go
>somewhere where we can have more "MEAT" to feed on. I haven't the
>faintest idea how to create a group and I don't know what we should
>name it. I am sure some interested party would be willing to help.
>Anyway, I will write a FAQ for it (with the help of others, I am
>sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
>some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff". All
>in favor...
Hi, Gregg,
I can understand your point.  I think this is a good time to state why I'm in
on this group.  I haven't been on the net for long ng and others giggle when
I mention I'm reading this group.  Well, yes, there is some silliness.  I've
indulged in it myself because it's the only way I can nicely say that I think
something is crap.  I don't believe in crystal power but I do believe in
magic.  I don't believe everyone and their dog who says they've been
abducted, photographed, talked to etc by E.T.s has but I do believe in other
life.  I don't believe in wholehearted awe and wonder without some proof but
I do believe in the spiritual power of some religions, ghosts and esp.  I
think New age is a stew that has too many overboiled beliefs diluting the
original goodness and power of the original and separate beliefs.
        So what do I do?  Probably some of what I'm interested in is new age
and some is science.  I have a very deep interest in science and write
science fiction.  I'm hoping that ;someday, while I'm working on a story I
can post this newsgrou[p and say, Hey, what do you guys think?  Is this alien
possible.  True, there's jokers and people who just hop on to drop a smartass
line and we never see them again.  But hey, if we can't laugh at ourselves
then can we lauigh at others?  I'm not saying you're wrong or right but
separating this group might be as impossible as proving there is a god.
Besides, no humor would be a very dry stodgy sort of newsgr.  Good lucluck.
Colleen Anderson
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a4445
From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 08:48:21 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 14

Andrew Todd Weinstein writes:
Couldn't they use this 2-mile gun to shoot nuclear waste and other earth
>wastes like from garbage dumps out into space, since the gun would be a
>farily cheeper method of doing this than if chemical propellant
>spacecrafts were to be used.  And you don't need as many resources as
>spaceships, since you can probably power the gun with nuclear power
>which is not a problem?
Great! And then we have garbage in space orbitting the Earth.  Yum.  Not only
that but it makes it fun for all future satellites and manned missions trying
to zigzag through the stink free zone.
Colleen
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a4445
From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 08:53:42 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 9

[e-mail] writes:

Subject: Two Chicks From Under Mt. Shasta. Part 3.
Please, John!  Chicks!  You're showing your age.  In this day we like to
think of them as women.  Chicks, sheesh, not very enlightened of you.
Colleen
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!rpi!batcomputer!reed!news
From: [e-mail] (Ben Cushman)
Subject: Alien Races?
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 09:56:53 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10


Hello out there--

A while back I encountered a post on the various types of alien races that
we know about.  Unfortunately, I lost my copy of this post.  If anyone has
information detailing the various alien races, please e-mail it to me.

                Thank you--

                    Ben Cushman
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12145 alt.alien.visitors:10166 sci.skeptic:32486
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 06:20:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

Dear Earth Folk: As most of you know Kibo has been elected the Spokesman
of the Earth. Long live Kibo.  What would you say if you
were the representative of a certain planet like Monka is, if these
people were sending probes and radio transmissions to other planet when
they already had frozen pilots of these other planets and only unthawed
these pilots every few years to interogate them about advanced weaponry?
What would you tell your own People.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12146 alt.alien.visitors:10167 alt.religion.kibology:4148
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 06:22:00 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Folks: I believe the show was called Hairy and the Wilkersons.
John Winston.
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Someone just informed me that the name of the show is Hairy and the
Hendersons. Sorry about that.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail]
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Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
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Dear Folks: I stand corrected Women it will be. I now am planning on
making a trip this winter into the gold area of Death Valley (if it
is OK with my wife). I still need one of two hand held CB walky talkies
with a range of 5 miles and some form of light (carbide of lanterns).
Maybe my friend that works on a program for the Navy who works about
10 miles from Wingate Pass can get in touch with me.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Kal)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jeff) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>About 6 months ago I started getting interested in abductions. I
>
>Yeh, well JW has about 30 years on you...

Well, JW thinks the Weekly World News is a reputable source of information.

>>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>>or government conspiracies.
>>
>>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
>
>Doesn't sound very professional to me.
>
>DON'T assume to draw parameters for me or anyone else in this group. It
>is unmoderated for a REASON. I agree with some of what you said about
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
We need a moderated group, maybe with a related ".d" group.

>wading thru people that are not serious about posting real information
>here, but don't be an ASSHOLE.
>
>I, JW, GS, and anybody else who wants to share in a sincere way has
>a voice here.
With all due respect, you, JW, GS and similar people are part of the reason
there is very little of the "serious" debate, research, and encounters.
There are posts that seem so rediculous that, say, a person who has had
an 'encounter' would be very hesitant to be associated with such a group.
The tone of aav is decidedly on the, shall we say, extreme end of the
spectrum. This is great fun for an unmoderated group, but there should
be a moderated group that excludes articles about clones taking over the
world, tribes with chicken feet, or commercial hot-tub fast breathing.
these subjects either have nothing to do with UFO's, or are just too
silly to contemplate (bad spelling notwithstanding). I think reading about
these things is great fun, but it is keeping the more relevant stuff off
the newsgroup.

>
>Jeff-
>
>(.sig-less and proud of it. Kids, go ahead and do this at home;-)
>

Kal    [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (The Dark Kitty)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>that they, as much as myself, get tired of "wading" through all this
>other "stuff" to get the meat.
>
and he also writes

>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>or government conspiracies.

Well, it's because of a similar interest on my part that I'm trying to
use ALLEGEDLY objective data and conclusions from the past (1960s etc)
regarding UFOs, abductions etc...to do my own research.  I'm currently
doing what's called 'verification' in the scientific world.  =-)

I've also become disillusioned with this newsgroup.  My attitude is
that,
if abductees and sighters of strange things are seeing and hearing
strange things, then a physical phenomenon must be at work.  The
question is not necessarily their honesty, but their veracity.  And
if it's a physical phenomenon then it is physically measurable,
observable, etc.  I totally discount people who gibber about ESP contact
with aliens, lost civilations and other nonsense.  It's not that these
things can't be true, it's that using them in an explanation is just
piling mystery upon mystery.

What I've found is a whole lot of freeloading types who read popular
books and watch 'sightings' and almost no real scientists who are
interested in trying to LEARN something on their own from readily
available data.  Some of my friends say I'm silly to research UFOs,
and to that I usually reply that astronomy grew out of astrology,
chemistry grew out of alchemistry and that, even if UFOlogy is silly,
it may yield long-term benefits.  If nothing else, it's a great way to
develop the power to think and to solve problems.

I'm tired of hearing the mindless ramblings of people who do nothing
but regurgitate World Weekly News, Sightings and other utterly obnoxious
garbage.  If nobody here can do anything else, then maybe this group
should be renamed alt.culture.paranoia.

Anthony Clifton

PS - If anyone IS truly interested in doing original (or verification is
ok)
research, then email me cause I'd seriously love to hear about it!

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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Earth Folk: As most of you know Kibo has been elected the Spokesman
|> of the Earth. Long live Kibo.
Apparently the natives weren't consulted on this matter!

|> What would you say if you
|> were the representative of a certain planet like Monka is, if these
|> people were sending probes and radio transmissions to other planet when
|> they already had frozen pilots of these other planets and only unthawed
|> these pilots every few years to interogate them about advanced weaponry?
|> What would you tell your own People.
|> John Winston
Which people are your own people?  What would you say if you couldn't
figure out what John Winston was talking about?  Does John Winston
know how to write sentences that are not questions?

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes:
>
> My preference would be to persuade contributors to discipline
> themselves.  If your article falls in one of the following categories,
> many of us think it would be better to find some other place for it:
>
> Christopher Schmidt
> Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
> [e-mail]


Chris has a good idea, but is it workable?  Perhaps we could do something like
rec.arts.tv does, and ask folks to put abbreviations in their header lines
which would let us know what the general topic is.  How about this:

NA  =  New Age stuff
UFO =  Pertaining to UFO sightings and phenomena
CE3 =  Close Encounters... alien contact
INV =  Paranoid rantings about alien invasions
VON =  VonDaniken-oid stuff like Atlantis/Mu/Spacemen
GRAY = Stuff about Grays
SCI  = Scientific (preferably not pseudo) findings on UFO related issues
ABD  = Abduction information
HOT  = Someone flaming someone else
HA   = Jokes & silliness
OP   = Opinions

I'm sure there are others we could use, but these are a few basic ones.  How
do you all feel about trying something like this?  It would help in using
killfiles.

Kellie M-S
internet::[e-mail]

p.s.  I also am tired of wading through hundreds of posts for the few "hard"
ones that come through!  I'd like to see a bit more real info here.

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From: [e-mail] (bernard.t.hebert)
Subject: ALIEN_TERRITORY(repost)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:29:59 GMT
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Summary: Boston Globe Magazine article from 10/11/92
Keywords: abductees, Harvard psychologist Dr. John Mack
Lines: 332


    Due to editor differences in the computers I use, the last posting of
    this article was not readable by everyone.  I have re-written it using
    the vi editor. Sorry for any inconvenience. BTH.
_______________________________________________________________________________

     The following article was taken from The Boston Globe Magazine of
        Sunday, October 11, 1992.

________________________________________________________________________________

        ALIEN TERRITORY  by  Sara Terry

    JOHN MACK, A HARVARD PSYCHIATRIST AT THE FRONT LINES OF UFO ABDUCTION
    RESEARCH, IS CONVINCED THAT ABDUCTEES ARE NOT MAKING UP THEIR STORIES:
    "I ENCOUNTERED SOMETHING HERE THAT DID NOT FIT ANYTHING I HAD EVER COME
    ACROSS IN 40 YEARS OF PSYCHIATRY."

  John Mack still remembers the conversation he had with Carl Sagan, back in the
sixties. Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, was intrigued by talk
of UFOs and wanted to hear Sagan's thoughts on the subject, which had been the
focus of a recent, well-publicized government inquiry.
  "Sagan had had something to do with the Condon Committee, which had reviewed
the whole question of UFOs," recalls Mack, "and he said, with great authority,
'There's nothing to it. There's no substance to it.' Well, Carl was an author-
ity figure to me, a prominent scientist and a friend, so I let it go."
  And that was that, as far as Mack was concerned, until some twenty years later
 when a friend invited him to meet Bud Hopkins. Hopkins, a New York artist and
sculptor, is one of the leading investigators of reports by individuals who
claim to have been abducted by UFOs.
  "I said 'Who's he?' - which shows you how familiar I was with the phenomenon,"
says Mack. When the friend explained Hopkins work, Mack responded, "What? There
must be something wrong with him and the people he meets with." But on January
10, 1990 - Mack remembers the date as if it were a birthday or an anniversary -
the two men met and spent a few hours discussing the cases Hopkins had research
ed. The studies were compelling and unlike anything Mack had come across in
nearly 40 years of clinical psychiatric work; he knew immediately that the final
word on UFOs no longer rested with Sagan and the Condon Committee. "I came away
somewhat shaken and fascinated," he says of the meeting with Hopkins. "It was a
mystery. I'd never taken abductions seriously at all. I realized at this point
that this was something I had no way to explain."

  In the nearly three years since his meeting with Hopkins, Mack has joined the
front line of abductee research. He has investigated almost 70 cases of abduc-
tions and conducted hundreds of hours of interviews and treatment. He has been
the subject of a network docudrama. He has been criticized by the press and
lashed out at by scientists. He has organized support groups and professional
conferences. He has also become convinced that abductees are not making up their
stories - and that their experiences may present a shock as great and transform-
ing to the foundations of science as did Copernicus' proof that the Earth is not
the center of the universe.

 "I encountered something here, very early on, which I saw did not fit anything
I had ever come across in 40 years of psychiatry," says the 63 year old Mack,
founder of the psychiatric department at Cambridge Hospital (which is affiliated
with Harvard Medical School) and winner of a 1977 Pulitzer Prize for his psycho-
analytic biography of Lawrence of Arabia. "The deeper I went into it," he cont-
inues, "the more and more information I got that doesn't fit anything else. This
has all kinds of implications for our scientific world view, for our identity as
a species on this planet."

  Typically, Mack says, abductions are highly traumatic experiences, often
repressed and usually called forward only with great pain and stress. Almost
always, individuals report seeing small, gray beings with huge dark eyes who
transport their immobilized subjects to some sort of spacecraft, where the cap-
tives are probed in a battery of tests that appear to relate to sexual and
reproductive experiments. Many abductees, or "experiencers," report a long
history of abductions. Mack has found that parents who have had many experiences
often find that their children become abductees as well. In almost every case he
has investigated, he says, people are reluctant to face what has happened.
  "One of the most powerfully consistent aspects of this for me has been the
tremulousness with which these people come to see me," says Mack, who has a
contract with Scribner to write a book on his findings. "They come to me very
fearful that either they will be found crazy, because what they've experienced
doesn't fit ordinary reality, or that they'll be found not to be crazy, and
then they're faced with the fact that these are real experiences, and what does
that mean for their world view, for their future, for their lives?"

  Of the several dozen cases he has investigated, Mack says, only two or three
individuals suffer from some form of mental illness. There is no particular type
of person who experiences abductions and no apparent reason why some people are
selected as abductees. Among the people Mack has interviewed are a musician, a
prison guard, housewives, secretaries, a psychiatrist, college student, a retir-
ed firefighter, and a restaurant owner.

  Fundamental to Mack's convictions about these experiences is the fact that,
over and over, abductees - who come from all over the country and who do not
know one another - tell remarkably consistent stories. Details may vary, but the
 narrative thread is so similar from case to case that Mack is convinced that
the experiences are not imagined. If they were simply made up or were the
psychic byproduct of some other traumatic event, he says, the accounts would
vary more widely, because of the individuality of the human psyche.

  "What struck me almost immediately," he says, "was my inability, as a psych-
iatrist, to explain how people who seemed otherwise quite normal, quite unre-
markable, could be telling the same disturbing story, in great detail: of
being taken from their rooms, their cars, in fields, into these craft and
subjected to highly intrusive procedures that have a unique quality.
  "There's a whole medical-like scenario, which is not known to us on Earth,"
he says, "and yet it's told by people all over the country, in great detail,
details which were not available in the media at the time and are still not in
the media in the kind of detail these people reported. And these stories were
consistent, one to the other.
  "The thing I've spent most of my professional life in," says Mack,"is learn-
ing to make clinical psychological discriminations, like 'Is this projection?',
'Is this hallucination?', 'Is this real experience?', 'Is this a dream?'. And
this [ abduction phenomenom ] behaves like real experience.
  "I have never had a sense, and I trust myself in this clinically," he says,
"that this phenomenon represents some kind of psychological contagion, that
people are influencing each other, or that these experiences are derivative of
something they've read or heard from someone else, or that they're reflecting
off the consciousness of another person's experience. I've never had a sug-
gestion of that."

  Although Mack's earliest cases were referred to him by Hopkins, increasingly
he has been contacted by people who have read his comments in stories about
UFOs, or have seen him interviewed on television. (Mack tends to turn down
interview requests, because he believes too many reporters trivialize or
sensationalize abductee cases.) After a recent conference at the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology on the abduction phenomenon, co-sponsored by Mack and
MIT physicist David Pritchard, Mack was contacted by a woman who had read a
a story about the meeting and wanted to see him.

  Unlike many experiencers, the woman could recall - without hypnosis - a
variety of alien contacts, going back to early childhood. She could also
recount more current experiences of being visited in her home by aliens,
who came into her bedroom, floated her into the living room, and performed
a series of intensely painful explorations into her spine with sharp
instruments.

  More commonly, abductees report what Mack calls a "margin of consciousness",
where memory recalls an experience to a certain point and then blanks out,
leaving individuals with chunks of unaccounted-for time. Under hypnosis, a
practice criticized by disbelievers but defended by Mack as an important tool
for uncovering repressed information, experiencers are taken back to the last
moment they consciously remember, such as the appearance of a small being in
their bedroom or the presence of a blue light. As the details surface, an
anguished mental struggle often occurs. Mack cites the case of a 38-year old
Pennsylvania man with a long history of abduction-related experiences. All the
man could recall of one recent experience, which began as he was trying to fall
asleep, was the presence of a female alien in the room. (Abductees, says Mack,
can almost always identify the sex of aliens, despite the lack of obvious
sexual characteristics.)
  Like many who undergo hypnosis, the man resisted recalling the experience,
asserting that the aliens had told him not to remember what had happened. The
man's story, says Mack, unfolded with "tremendous distress, sweating, and pain,
and anguish." There was also, he says, a great sense of shame and a fear of
being vulnerable, which Mack worked to dispell, trying to reassure the man that
his experience was not a reflection of weakness but something over which he
had no control.
  "And, at certain point, there was a breakthrough," says Mack. "He began to
sob. It was so touching, because he'd been fighting with himself and with his
unconsciousness, and at that point, he crossed a line and just let go. It was
just this tremendous release."
  What unfolded during the narative was a story common among abductees, one
Mack had suspected in this particular case because of the shame and vulner-
ability the man had expressed. Like many male abductees, the man recalled that
he had been taken onto a craft, where he was sexually probed, and a sperm
sample was forcibly taken from him.
  Mack says that another emotion surfaced, common among experiencers. "I've
seen it so many times now," he says. "It's a sobbing that goes along with a
sense of awe. Have you ever been moved by something in nature or something
in art or music? It's like you're humbled before God, you're just so moved by
the spectacle, by the awesomeness of what's before you. It was that quality
[ in the man's sobbing ], a combination of relief and awe. And the awe had to
do with, Oh my God, what an extraordinary thing it is that has happened to me.
  "Again, it's a question of clinical judgement," he says. "When memories come
back like that, I never have any question that these people are describing
something that has authentically happened to them. If I do get a case, as I
occasionally do, where I feel that somebody is looking to convince themselves
or me that they were abducted, I don't count those cases. I don't include them
among the authentic ones."

  Since beginning his research nearly three years ago, Mack has established
a support group that meets at his Brookline home once a month. In the quiet of
his wood-pannelled, book-lined living room, 20 to 30 people share their stories,
often expressing great relief at being able to talk to others who have been
through the same thing. Their stories coincide on many levels: They talk about
the presence of light and the ability of aliens to transmute into a sheer light
force. Often the light is connected with haeling; abductees say that fevers and
other illnesses disappear as a result of an abduction. Many say that a vibrating
eneergy courses through their bodies when the aliens take them from their homes.
Physical marks are often left on experiencers' bodies: small incisions or scoop
marks, which appear to be the remnants of surgical procedures.
  Overwhelmingly, women and men recall sexual encounters and experiments. A wide
variety of reproductive stories abound, with many women claiming to have been
impregnated by aliens, who then remove the embryo immediately or on a subsequent
abduction. Some women say their captors have taken them to nurseries where
hybrid babies are being raised.

  Mack is well aware that the stories stretch the bounds of credibility. And he
knows that, like Hydra, every theory about abduction leads to a dozen new
questions. Yet he is undeterred in his conviction that the abduction phenomenon
cannot be dismissed.
  "No one has been able to come up with a counterformulation that explains
what's been going on," he says. "But if people can't be convinced [ that this is
real ], that's okay. All I want is for people to be convinced that there's
something going on here that is not explainable. That something is entering
these peoples lives that we don't understand.
  "If we can be in that place of not knowing," he adds,"we're likely to learn
more than if we try to stick this here, or stick it there, or if we close our
minds and try to keep this under control."

  The outrageous headlines are familiar to anyone who has ever stood in line
at a supermarket checkout lane. Claims such as "Aliens Endorse Clinton" -
recently trumpeted on the front page of one popular tabloid - crop up as
regularly as Elvis sightings and appearances by the Abominable Snowman.
Mack is somewhat resigned to it all. He knows, thanks to the highly dramatic
nature of aliens and abductions, that there will always be an insatiable
appetite for alien stories in the tabloid press and on tabloid-type television
shows. Lately, though, he's begun to see signs that the media and a growing
number of academics and scientists are starting to pay slightly more serious
attention to the abduction phenomenon. In the past few months, he says, he has
been interviewed for a lengthy upcoming "New Yorker" story, and has participated
 in a Canadian Broadcasting Corp. program - a Canadian equivalent of 'NOVA' -
that will air this fall. Mack has also been contacted by philosophers, theolo-
gians, young psychologists who want to work with him, a molecular chemist, and
a graduate student in educational psychology who wants to do her thesis on the
abduction phenomenon. ("That's a very good indicator, when people in academic
degree programs want to do their thesis on something," notes Mack, "Then you
know it's reached a level of legitamacy.") He has also met with a "quite
prominent" Harvard physics professor, who was "very interested and very open",
but said he couldn't talk about the abductions "around here" - meaning the
building on campus where the professor teaches.
  "Little by little, people are coming into this thing," says Mack, whose work
with abductees is partially supported by small grants from private foundations.
"It's still not the way a young person can make a career in mainstream academic
institutions, but it's a very exiciting field. I have a kind of faith that if
you really are truthful about what you see, and you do your work with integrity,
that people will eventually come around. If they don't come to the point of
agreeing with it, at least they'll begin to notice it."
  Mack, however, is well aware of the fact that many physical scientists dismiss
his work out of hand. Those critics, he contends, simply haven't explored the
evidence or are too bound by the conventions of science to consider information
that is not strictly measurable by machines or the physical senses. When doubt-
ing colleagues listen to the tapes of sessions with abductees and spend time
with him, discussing his research, Mack says, "they tend to be staggered by the
phenomenon." And while those colleagues may not become believers, he continues,
"Some of them say 'I've gone from atheist to agnostic on this.'"

  Dr. Edward J. Khantzian is one of those colleagues who have heard Mack present
his data and calls it "very, very compelling stuff." Khantzian, an associate
clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School at the Cambridge
Hospital, says that Mack "has taken a lot of disbelievers and had us scratching
our heads, wondering what is this he is studying. He's at least made a lot of
us stop and think again, which is what he's always done."
  "I don't know what to make of it ultimately, and I'm basically somewhere
between being a disbeliever and an agnostic," says Khantzian, who has worked
with Mack for nearly 30 years. "But as far as I can tell, he's operating as a
careful clinician in these studies, and that's what I respect. I don't under-
stand it, I'm still dubious, but I respect his right to search it out to the
fullest."

  Mack takes most comments from doubters and skeptics in stride. But the
generally soft-spoken psychiatrist does become incensed by the flat dismissal
of abductees stories' by disbelievers, a rejection that Mack says only helps
add to a sense of isolation already felt by traumatized abductees. "It's
demeaning to those people to think that they are somehow subject to some kind
of perceptual distortion or make-believe," says Mack.
  "People know what they see, they know what their perceptions are," he insists.
"That what they saw or what they experienced requires some explanation which
we don't now have, that's another story."
  As far as Mack is concerned, the search for answers has to include the
possibility of a reality not yet percieved by science. At its most radical,
notes Mack, the practice of modern science has led to such things as the SETI
project, a $100 million National Aeronautics and Space Administration mission
known as the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Scheduled to begin
tomorrow, the project relies on radio telescopes to search the universe for
signs of intelligent life beyond planet Earth.
 Mack argues that abductees' reports point to an intelligence that can obviously
elude man-made machines, no matter how sophisticated - and to a world that
exists not out there in the physical universe, but in an entirely different
dimension.
  "In the experience of the abductees," he says,"the aliens seem to come from
another dimension. They seem to break through our sense of reality of this
space-time physicalist world, to come from some other place. Abductees will
describe the sense of space and time collapsing, or of coexistent multiple time
dimensions.
  "They have the feeling that they have been introduced to another universe
which is just as real as this one, but which is other-dimensional," he says.
"It's as if it's a dimension that seems to enter our physical world, but is not
necessarily of our physical world."
  Although he admits that such possibilities have yet to be proven by the
physical sciences, Mack laments what he calls "the unwillingness of the official
intellectual community to be open-minded about a reality that doesn't fit their
world view." As he sees it, the abduction phenomenom could ultimately present
mankind with a "fourth blow" to its collective ego. The first, he says, was the
Copernican blow, which proved that man and Earth were not the center of the
universe; the second blow was administered by Darwin, whose findings on evolu-
tion proved that man did not spring from "some higher level of spiritual
biology"; and the third blow was delivered by Freud, whose explorations of the
unconscious revealed that man's conscious mind was not all that was in control
of his life.

  Mack says he still has no answers about what the abductions mean or why they
happen. Although some researchers in the field believe that the primary pur-
pose of the kidnappings is to carry out some sort of breeding program, Mack
sees a more transformational element to the abductions: an attempt to alert
humans to the need for change in their lives.
  Abductees frequently report that during their time on alien spacecraft, they
are shown powerful visual images of environmental destruction on Earth. Many
return with a passionate commitment to protect the planet. Mack interprets the
warnings, and the increased awareness among individual abductees, as an attempt
to reconnect humans with a heightened sense of spirituality. It's a quest, he
says, best summed up by the poet Rainer Maria Rilke, who wrote:

    That is at the bottom the only courage that is demanded of us:
    To have courage for the most strange, the most singular and
    the most inexplicable that we may encounter. That mankind has
    in this sense been cowardly has done life endless harm;
    The experiences that are called 'visions,' the whole so-called
    'spirit-world,' death and all those things that are so closely
    akin to us, have by daily parrying been so crowded out of life
    that the senses by which we could have grasped them are atrophied.
    To say nothing of God.

  Other civilizations, including Eastern and native cultures, have been far more
fluent than the West in communing with experiences that defy understanding in
terms of physical reality, says Mack. He argues that the Western world of the
past few hundred years may have reached a dead end of sorts - and that the
abductee experience may be part of a move away from the strict confines of
materialism.

  "It may be that we're on the brink of some kind of major opening to our proper
place in the universe," muses Mack. "I think, in this society, we're involved in
a major epochal shift. I don't know what the purpose of all this is, but it
certainly is some kind of profound connecting of us beyond ourselves."



________________________________________________________________________________
EOF
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steven Malikoff)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 06:42:46 GMT
Lines: 15

[e-mail] writes:
<intro about railguns>
: few nanoseconds later, the cap bank is discharged into the rails. The puck
: begins to travel forward, but the rails collapse so fast, that the puck is sort
: of squirted out of the barrle, to the tune of the fastest speed attained by
: mass by man, 335,000 MPH ! ! ! Gueniss book of world records mentions the

Hmmm... I seem to remember it is the intense electric field that propels
the puck along the rails, not the rails collapsing upon the puck. The heat
generated does not completely ruin the rails (just mostly!) so while it's
ok for small devices, a large one would be very expensive due to the fact
you'd have to rebuild it all the time.

Steve Malikoff.
[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (ozzy)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Portable Ufo detector, is it out there?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 12:50:53 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (news user)
Organization: none
Lines: 10
Nntp-Posting-Host: cc_sysh

Is there anyone out there on the net that has a copy of the portable
Ufo detector? I would be very happy if some-one could send it on to me.
Methinks the net address is [e-mail]

Many thanks in advance

ozzy

--
[e-mail]
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12153 alt.alien.visitors:10177
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (James Kittock)
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:07:27 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>1>+&#$$$$$
>%Subject: Two Chicks From
>Under Mt. Shasta. Part 2.
[etc. etc]
>John Winston.
>st you to search for more information.

This is great-- now that I don't have a TV I have to come here for
comedy.  If I could find a good female lead singer I could start a
band, "Sharula and the Hyperbeans".

>,4xNxVxvx%xtxTxKx]
>x7x
>xx&x(x,<
>0Roman 10cpi, cheerful, and rational, and says, she is a Lemurian born
>under the sign of Leo in 1951 in a city called Tel

Whoa man, watch that editor!

Say, do you ever have bad trips as well?
--
James Kittock -- 1st Year PhD Student, Computer Science, Stanford -- Duke '92
      "What the world needs now is another folk singer,
         like I need a hole in my head."  -- Cracker
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Allen Coody)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO sighting in Verde Valley, AZ
Date: 14 Oct 1992 19:18:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Is anyone familiar with a UFO sighting in the Verde Valley of Arizona
within the last three weeks. I have received requests for information
on this subject in our library, supposedly 45 individuals witnessed
an object hovering 45 miles south of Flagstaff on I-17 near a rest
stop. Any information or a reference would be appreciated.
--
Juan de los Caballeros
Time Traveler 1540-?
NAU CFN ETC...        "The Past Lives within the Present" Nemo nd
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10179 alt.conspiracy:19011
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nevada.edu!jimi!equinox!pyramid!malc
From: [e-mail] (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Keywords: stollman, clones, aliens, invasion, Jesus
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:40:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Xinaian Tourist Bureau
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
<
<I have just returned from a foree into the world of the unknown for the
<umteenth time, where I learned exactly who and why this has all been
<happening to me.  It turns out that I am a special angel put here by God
<to bring peace and happiness to the world.  I was taken over by Jesus, and
<he in turn saved my family and friends.  I drove all over California in my
<car, although the distances were altered by God moving my car through
<space, and one minute I was driving near Santa Barbara, and then the next
<minute I was back in Pasadena, where I was taken out of the car by angels
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<after stopping as told by God in the middle of an intersection.

Were the angels wearing Pasadena P.D. uniforms?

Or perhaps white coats :-)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (James Kittock)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:12:30 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (C J Rogers (Chris)) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>>>I too recall the Discover article.  it talked about magnetic coil guns or
>>>something.
>>
>>>JK
>>
>>It is commonly known as a rail gun.  It uses magnetic forces and super
>>conductors to propel objects at high rates of speed.   I am not to certain as
>>to the accuracy of this fact, but I have heard that they can get a particle
>>5 or 6 times faster than the speed of sound before it even reaches the end of a
>>20-25 foot long barrel.  Pretty interesting stuff.  Also, on a large scale such
>>as 2-3 miles, it could not be aimed well enough to be used as an effective
>>weapon.  It does have uses in putting sattilites in low Earth orbit, thus
>>saving on the amounts of feul used.

Actually, the current project (which will be tested sometime in the
next month or so) uses gas from an explosion and the barrel is about
120 feet long, as I recall.  The goal is to get the projectile up to
about 9,000 MPH (I think).  Of course, the escape velocity of Earth's
g-field is a bit higher than that, but it is the right order of
magnitude.

Sadly, the payload is only about 10kg.  But it is a start.

As for weapons use, it is always a possibility, but I think there are
more practical and effective weapons systems.

--
James Kittock -- 1st Year PhD Student, Computer Science, Stanford -- Duke '92
      "What the world needs now is another folk singer,
         like I need a hole in my head."  -- Cracker
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 16:54:39 GMT
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes:
>
>My preference would be to persuade contributors to discipline
>themselves.  If your article falls in one of the following categories,
>many of us think it would be better to find some other place for it:
>
>(1) Articles that are clearly off the subject.  This would include
>    almost any discussion of abortion, and a lot more besides.
>
>(2) Most articles that contain a statement of opinion and nothing
>    else, usually regarding some point in a previous article.
>    Example: A long section of material quoted from a previous
>    article, followed by "I agree" or words to that effect.  When you
>    post an article, imagine that you are speaking to a group of 5000
>    people, and ask yourself whether you think they are all truly
>    interested in whether you personally agree with some particular
>    thing someone else said previously.
>
>(3) Articles that consist of either a joke or a statement of ridicule
>    and nothing else.  These articles are usually especially punitive
>    to us readers, because they typically consist of many lines of
>    quoted material followed by just one or two lines of original
>    material, usually some kind of joke that probably seemed
>    frightfully amusing to its creator at the time but that has no
>    entertainment value for anyone else.
>
>I realize that to some extent this article sets out rules about what
>not to say, and that what I propose might therefore be viewed by some
>as a form of censorship, and I am sorry about that.  I hope we all
>work together to improve this newsgroup.
>
>Christopher Schmidt
>Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
>[e-mail]

FAQ people, grab this and integrate it with what you are doing.

Gregg.


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:35:45 GMT
Lines: 63

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>About 6 months ago I started getting interested in abductions. I
>
>Yeh, well JW has about 30 years on you...
>

What? I was talking about abductions of real people not Astral Abductions.
My guess is that he is probably still wet behind the ears when it comes
to standard reality which he so seldom thinks about...and thats his
business. I am not worried about him. I am only wanting to get the
fantasy away from the (possibly) non-fatastic stuff.

>>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>>or government conspiracies.
>>
>>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
>
>Doesn't sound very professional to me.

And you do? Sounds like you took this all pretty personal, meaning that
you feel a little twinge of accusation? Well, so be it. I am not interested
in pleasing anyone, only continueing my research in the most productive
way possible.

>
>DON'T assume to draw parameters for me or anyone else in this group. It
>is unmoderated for a REASON. I agree with some of what you said about
>wading thru people that are not serious about posting real information
>here, but don't be an ASSHOLE.

I don't have to be an Ahole. You do a very good job for all of us. Please
don't stop. Not sure I could fill in for you in case of failure. Obviously
I have not had as much practice.

>
>I, JW, GS, and anybody else who wants to share in a sincere way has
>a voice here.
>
>Jeff-
>
>(.sig-less and proud of it. Kids, go ahead and do this at home;-)
>

Kids, please, don't be an Ahole. Just because someone has an opinion
that conflicts with yours does not mean they are bad, just different.

Anyway, I did not accuse or flame anyone. You have unjustifiably proven
that YOU ARE AN AHOLE by flaming me for no reason.

Gregg.
[e-mail]


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:50:47 GMT
Lines: 96

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (DON KAUFFMAN) writes:
>[e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>Subject: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
>
>    Have you tried decaf?
>
You lost me on this one. I don't drink coffee, decaf or otherwise.


>>Its is boldly appearant to me that alt.alien.visitors needs to split
>
>    It is boldly apparent to me that you need to pick up a
>    dictionary.
Its boldly apparent to me that you are correct. Not the first time and
not the last. My appologies.


>
>>Lets leave these bozos to their wild tales of entertainment and go
>
>    How can you possibly tell the difference between
>    real talk of alien visitors and wild tales of entertainment?
Actually its quite easy. Based on my reading, there are certain criteria
upon which real abductions are based. Only a very few posts in this area
have ever had those. Also, a little logic helps, which I admit is somewhat
of a inconguent statement but it works for me.

>
>    I think you'll find that the alt.alien.visitor reader
>    is looking for both, and that if you start a new group,
>    the same "bozos" will migrate there as well.
This is true. However, one thing I did not mention in my original post is
IMHO one of the biggest problems with this group is that when it started
it must not have had a FAQ. The new group, I am sure, would have one
from the start. It would also have to be moderated to some extent even
if it was by the serious users.

>>somewhere where we can have more "MEAT" to feed on. I haven't the
>
>    Am I reading this correctly?  You want to start a group
>    where you can talk about eating alien visitors?
Funny. No, we are not sure if they are animal or vegetable.


>>faintest idea how to create a group and I don't know what we should
>>name it. I am sure some interested party would be willing to help.
>>Anyway, I will write a FAQ for it (with the help of others, I am
>>sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
>>some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff". All
>>in favor...
>>
>
>    NAY!!!
>    Is there any way that we can block this nonsense?
>    A peaceful resistance?

Good. I guess we won't be seing your posts is the new group. I am already
getting a large response of people that are saying "AYE!". So basically,
we don't need you unless you are willing. Just don't subscribe to the
group when it comes.

>>Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
>>their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
>>planet.
>
>    You'll only eat them if they're not friendly?
>    Do you eat cows?  Has any cow ever been particularly
>    unfriendly to you?  Why do you want to eat these aliens?
>    Have you heard something about their meat being especially
>    tasty?  If so, what kind of meat here on earth is comparable?
>
>    Oh, I see.  You don't want to eat them, just to blow them.
Funny. Yeah, we are all laughing here. I really do have a good sense of
humor. I have had a good run of laughs with this last big post I left.

>
>>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
>
>    Huh?  Is this supposed to be funny?
>
>    Do you know Gary?
Oh, you know my brother?

Really Don, I did not intend to piss off anyone. I am also not saying that
there is any harm in the way aav is going. I am just looking for something
different. I actually get a kick out of reading a lot of the stuff in here.

Gregg.
[e-mail]


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:54:47 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steven Vere) writes:
>   Bozos and crackpots are not going to discipline themselves.  As
>someone else suggested, most will simply migrate to the new newsgroup.
>I happen to believe that some of these people are professional signal
>jammers.  The best bozo-crackpot filter is the kill file, which you
>can tune and customize to filter out the noise.
>
>  Steven Vere                                       [e-mail]

I think you may be right Steve. I would still like to try. Anyway, I
have some different ideas that may be e-mail based. e-mail me if you are
interested.

Gregg.
--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 21:12:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 40

>
>Chris has a good idea, but is it workable?  Perhaps we could do something like
>rec.arts.tv does, and ask folks to put abbreviations in their header lines
>which would let us know what the general topic is.  How about this:
>
>NA  =  New Age stuff
>UFO =  Pertaining to UFO sightings and phenomena
>CE3 =  Close Encounters... alien contact
>INV =  Paranoid rantings about alien invasions
>VON =  VonDaniken-oid stuff like Atlantis/Mu/Spacemen
>GRAY = Stuff about Grays
>SCI  = Scientific (preferably not pseudo) findings on UFO related issues
>ABD  = Abduction information
>HOT  = Someone flaming someone else
>HA   = Jokes & silliness
>OP   = Opinions
>
>I'm sure there are others we could use, but these are a few basic ones.  How
>do you all feel about trying something like this?  It would help in using
>killfiles.
>
>Kellie M-S
>internet::[e-mail]
>
>p.s.  I also am tired of wading through hundreds of posts for the few "hard"
>ones that come through!  I'd like to see a bit more real info here.
>
Kellie,
  You have an idea which has more merit than you may realize. If the people
in this group could agree on conventions such as these it would eliminate
the need for killfiles as you could follow a discussion thread without fear
of losing an item due to automatic killing. It would also be easy to scan
for related topics too.
                            Good luck,
                               Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 22:40:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steven Malikoff) writes...
>[e-mail] writes:
><intro about railguns>
>: few nanoseconds later, the cap bank is discharged into the rails. The puck
>: begins to travel forward, but the rails collapse so fast, that the puck is sort
>: of squirted out of the barrle, to the tune of the fastest speed attained by
>: mass by man, 335,000 MPH ! ! ! Gueniss book of world records mentions the
>
>Hmmm... I seem to remember it is the intense electric field that propels
>the puck along the rails, not the rails collapsing upon the puck. The heat
>generated does not completely ruin the rails (just mostly!) so while it's
>ok for small devices, a large one would be very expensive due to the fact
>you'd have to rebuild it all the time.
>
>Steve Malikoff.
>[e-mail]
======================================================================
Steve,
  You are both close. As an aside before my explanation the electromagnetic
railgun is already down to the size that would fit onto the bed of a medium
size truck. There are at least two companies here in the states that are work-
ing on reducing it down further so that it can be a viable tank-mounted weapon
with the premise that it would not have to fire heavy explosive or kinetic
energy projectiles to do damage.
  The railgun is an ideal weapon for space because to work effectively it really
needs a vacuum within the 'barrel' section. In this manner when the capacitive
bank is discharged into the accelerating coils there is no air resistance to
slow the rapid acceleration of the projectile. For an example of how effective
these can be the Sandia National Laboratories on the south side of Albuquerque
have a railgun test facility located in the Manzano Mountains farther southeast
of the city. The railgun is stationary and aimed up a canyon on the Labs land
,which is off limits incidentally, to test fire various configurations of de-
vices. Typically, on a test all they fire is a plastic cube, one inch (25mm) on
a side. This cube has a mettelic foil backing, that's all. On discharge the
electromatic force generated is enough to propel the cube to a velocity of
several miles a second up the canyon. As the cube leaves the barrel of the
railgun it passes through a thin fragile cover which serves to keep the vacuum
in the acceleration chamber. At this velocity there is little fear of the cover
affecting the trajectory of the projectile. Tests have been done on different
materials and the little plastic cube has enough kinetic energy to put significant
holes into half inch armor plate.
  There is no distruction of the 'gun', barrel, guide rail warping, etc. Only the
cover needs to be replaced before the 'barrel' is again evacuated of air to be
ready for another 'firing'.
  A simple concept, great potential.
                            Jim
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 23:05:50 GMT
Lines: 79

Hi Gregg (and everyone else),

Here we go again... ;^)

I'm all for creating a new news group with a more serious slant towards
UFOs. Since you've initiated this attempt, I'll give you some free advice
after participating in the last few attempts:

  - leave alt.alien.visitors alone (i.e. don't try to change it or
    rename it.) It is an "anything goes" newsgroup that provides
    access to the New Age side of UFology. Noone could ever change it.
    Besides, judging by the name, it was never meant for anything serious.

  - keep your proposal simple. You will never be able to get consensus
    with a large complicated new group proposal. Define 1 new newsgroup
    that meets the following criteria:

    - the name *must* not pre-judge the phenomenon (i.e. alt.alien.visitors)
                                                                 ^^^^^
    - the name should *try* to fit into an existing hierarchy to avoid
      creating a new top-level group. The net.anal.retentives get
      real p.o.'d at top-level newsgroups unless there is a good reason.
          You could try for a sci news group (after all sci.skeptic got
          one), but there will be less resistance in alt (IMO)

    - the name must sound "serious" (alt.ufo-crash.bang.bang.bang is
      right out ;^)

    - the name (hierarchy) *should* be expandable if new groups *need*
      to spin off (i.e. abductions, mutilations, crop circles)
      (keep in mind that something like alt.ufos.crop-circles falls
      victim to pre-judgement) I really don't think that more than
      one group is necessary (IMO of course).

   - don't just create a new alt group. Power tripping news admins will
     refuse to carry it out of spite ;^)

   - post a new group proposal to alt.config and cross-post it to other
     groups that may be interested (i.e. alt.paranormal, alt.conspiracy,
     sci.skeptic, alt.alien.visitors, etc...) Your proposal should have
     a group charter to say what stuff is encouraged and what is discouraged
     (be careful here!) and some hard promises for regular FAQ postings. Be
     prepared to argue as to why we need a new group instead of using
     sci.skeptic or alt.alien.visitors (no trouble for readers of these
     groups, but try convincing someone who is *not* interested in UFOs
     that it is a worthy interest) If you feel any kind of consensus,
     call for a vote. A simple "create this newsgroup Y/N?" vote is
     probably best. If you can't get consensus with one group name then
     get people to vote for 1 of the N choices (or for *no* new group).

   - try to get a promise of regular posting of research material from
     other "serious" UFO groups or organizations (i.e. MUFON, Paranet, etc..)
     *if* (and only if) the new group is created. (i.e. "promise candy" ;^)

   - remember that a new group won't necessarily scare away the New Agers.
     All you can really promise is a charter, FAQ, and the right to discourage
     flaky postings (which nobody has on alt.alien.visitors).

   - remember to mention the benefits to the readers of other groups, not
     just the new group. Lots of alt.alien.visitors readers would *love*
     to be able to get rid of us darn "researchers".

   - try to organize through email, with 1 person as the central
     organizer (Since you started it - I nominate you Gregg.)


What will I do? Well... I'll promise to contribute to the FAQ of the
new group if it is created. I'll even take on Roswell if required ;^)
What would I propose? 1 new group: alt.ufo.research.



Leonard.

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:17:17 -0400
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Lines: 19


>wastes like from garbage dumps out into space, since the gun would be a
>farily cheeper method of doing this than if chemical propellant
>spacecrafts were to be used.  And you don't need as many resources as
>spaceships, since you can probably power the gun with nuclear power
>which is not a problem?

>>Great! And then we have garbage in space orbitting the Earth.  Yum.  Not only
>>that but it makes it fun for all future satellites and manned missions trying
>>to zigzag through the stink free zone.
>>Colleen

Well, I am sure this 2-mile gun can shoot the earth junk out of earth
orbit, so I don't understand what the problem is.  There is PLENTY of
room in space so that the junk won't get in anyone's way! Plus you can
put some kind of contamination shielding around the junk if it is toxic.



Organization: Sophomore, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 15:19:23 -0400
From: Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Lines: 7


or how about just shooting the junk towards the sun, and that way the
the material won't be just floating around in space and the sun will get
fed and will properly dispose of the waste.



Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12158 alt.alien.visitors:10190 alt.religion.kibology:4161
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 18:12:58 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 69

1>+y!"""""
#Subject: Big Foot. Part 3.
  Before getting started on part 3 let me explain that some of the smaller
type of Sasquatch can change to another dimension and become invisible but
the larger, more smelley type are limited usually to the third dimension.
Now on with the show.
  I went into their little deal and there was two big logs across a little
gully; then they took other logs sideways and on top covered with fir-brough
to make their little home.  It was just lit up perfectly inside, Just as
though they had lights.  Of course, I found the same thing out when I went
up into the  5th Dimension.  They didn't have electricity, not light bulbs
or anything in the house to light them. I didn't know what they used, what
they make or anything. But like I say, there is a lot I don't know that I
wish I could know.  But they leave me hanging out, just a little bit on a
limb, each time.  So I have to work to try to figure out what they're trying
to tell me to do.  I can't figure out why they can't just come around,
that's what I tell them I'll just wait, I'll know when the time comes.  I'm
talking about Star People now, or the Sasquatch, either one. I mean both of
them tell the same thing. Just wait, the time will come. I tell you, I
really do know what they want, in a way. Question: When you started
receiving messages, what kind of information was it? Answer: Well first
let's go back to when I first met them I went out there and I quess I'm a
funny sort of a guy; like I talk to trees, and I think even if you take off
a little branch from one of them, I feel that it hurts them.  And the funny
part of it is that like I say, I'm a logger, and ex-logger.  I've cut
thousands of trees down.  I feel that the trees have fellings, so I thiknk
that's one reason they (Big Foot) picked me out.  They told me they don't
care about the education of people around here you see. Now Bob, works as a
scientist, so he's up higher than I am. I'm down in the blue collar or the
working class level, I guess you might say.  So these are the people that I
got to talk to, you see. But Bob, he's got to talk to the higher scientists.
 But anyway, I was gettin' back to what I was talkin' about. When I went up
there, I told this guy, talking about Sasquatch or Bigfoot, I said, "I want
to give you somethin' I want to give you my love because I love you people.
I love every living creature. God's creatures".  And I said, I want to give
you my love.  I'm not asking anything from you, but I would appreciate if
you could give me some love. I would gladly accept it for what I'm giving
you.
  And I went down and spent the night with them. There's no foul smell with
them that some newspapers report; that's a bunch of bull.  Now, let's
backtrack there for a minute.  There are seven species, different species(of
Big Foot).  There's what they call the dome-shaped heads, but my people (the
Big Foot Family I've met) call them the pyramid-heads instead.  And there's
of course, what we now as a Yeti,  I think that's the way they pronounce it.
 There's the Bonneville (Abominable) Snowman, and there's several different
kinds; because do you remember over in Russia the story of a Big Foot that
this guy Breadwood had, I mean he kept chained up.  Well that actually
happened. There's two sons of the Female Big Foot (he caught) that are in
hiding in Russiaa right now.   The first two children died because they had
the man's genes and blood in them and the mother tried like she would in the
wild-she gave  them a bath in ice water and they both died of pneumonia, the
first two.  The scientist found out about it, so they took the next two when
they were born before she had time.  They took her and kept her till they
were born, and then educated them. And they didn't have no hair on them
either. But of course, I guess, I'm getting a little bit out--clear over in
another area now.
End Part 3
Stan lives near Oakland, Oregon.
John Winston.



, in a ywy
,xx
x#x5xAxcxsxuxwxyx{x
,<

0Roman 10cpione of them, I feel that it hurts them.  And the funny part of
it is that like I say, I'm a logger, and ex-lo
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12163 alt.alien.visitors:10191 sci.skeptic:32524
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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 22:38:51 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 26

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear Earth Folk: As most of you know Kibo has been elected the Spokesman
> of the Earth. Long live Kibo.  What would you say if you
> were the representative of a certain planet like Monka is, if these
> people were sending probes and radio transmissions to other planet when
> they already had frozen pilots of these other planets and only unthawed
> these pilots every few years to interogate them about advanced weaponry?
> What would you tell your own People.
> John Winston

I think I would tell them to stop reading the National Enquirer, take a
cold shower, pinch themselves a couple of times and settle in with a
copy of The Pickwick Papers by a nice warm fire.

And oh, yes, give your wife and kids a nice warm hug and if latitude
permits, catch the Northern Lights while checking your trap lines.

Some hot toddy would likely help.

That is what I would tell my own people.

You asked . . .  :-) :-)

=Doug

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] ([Robert James Hoge])
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: esk
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
References: <YeqoSLi00iUyE6PuR=@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 02:47:28 GMT
Lines: 23

In article <YeqoSLi00iUyE6PuR=@andrew.cmu.edu>, Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>
>Couldn't they use this 2-mile gun to shoot nuclear waste and other earth
>wastes like from garbage dumps out into space, since the gun would be a
>farily cheeper method of doing this than if chemical propellant
>spacecrafts were to be used.  And you don't need as many resources as
>spaceships, since you can probably power the gun with nuclear power
>which is not a problem?
>
>
>
You fool, what about us younger genaration who will have homes out in
space in a matter of 30 or less years??  Are you one of these people
who declare that they are environmentally friendly just so they can
have friends?? Grow up or rot.


--
 _--_|\  Finland,  ______________________________________________________       /      \ America, / [Robert James Hoge]  [e-mail] \      \_.--._/  France, \______________________________________________________/
      v <-------   UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA, LAUNCESTON, A U S T R A L I A.        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    / "Tasmania is so small, that we have a fraction for a zip code, really!"   \
\ /////\\\\\ Kop Jai Mag Krup /////\\\\\  [-I am *the*  S M E G H E A D !-] /    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    No, I'm not married!  But believe me if I was, I'd rather have the $50,000!!
################################################################################# I'm possesed with gambling. I just can't help myself. I'll gamble anything.  #################################################################################
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From: [e-mail] (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Date: 15 Oct 1992 02:50:16 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]> writes:


>>wastes like from garbage dumps out into space, since the gun would be a
>>farily cheeper method of doing this than if chemical propellant
>>spacecrafts were to be used.  And you don't need as many resources as
>>spaceships, since you can probably power the gun with nuclear power
>>which is not a problem?

>>>Great! And then we have garbage in space orbitting the Earth.  Yum.  Not only
>>>that but it makes it fun for all future satellites and manned missions trying
>>>to zigzag through the stink free zone.
>>>Colleen

>Well, I am sure this 2-mile gun can shoot the earth junk out of earth
>orbit, so I don't understand what the problem is.  There is PLENTY of
>room in space so that the junk won't get in anyone's way! Plus you can
>put some kind of contamination shielding around the junk if it is toxic.

Would have to be a pretty powerful gun...

keith




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12164 alt.alien.visitors:10194 sci.skeptic:32526
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 20:38:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I forgot to mention that today is OOBE wednesday but is
now 8:37 PM wednesday. It's about time to blast off.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!titan
From: [e-mail] (Titanium Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Sky Magic on CBC television (Canada)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 13:16:25 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
Lines: 7

So, who watched the special edition of Man Alive, abot UFOs: called Sky
Magic?  I was somewhat dissapointed in it, probably because I've heard it
all before.  However, one part was extremely interesting listening to
the tape recording of that guys abduction (through hypnosis).  Wow!  It
was strange.

Titan
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: "Extraterrestrials and Angels": Who Are these Clowns?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 03:33:43 GMT
Lines: 60

        An  ad in the "San Jose Metro," Oct. 8, 1992. (Does anybody  know
        anything  about  this  crowd?  My guess  is  that  they  must  be
        associated with some already-existing New Age group or cult, else
        the attendance at this seminar would likely be zero.)




                We Are Not Alone! They Are Here ... Who Are They?

                            EXTRATERRESTRIALS/ANGELS

                     Are Current UFO Sightings Linked to the
                     Angelic Visitations of Biblical Times?

                   Join the Experts for a Provocative Inquiry

                     The U.F.O. Symposium. Speakers Include:

                           G. Cope Schellhorn, Author,
                    "Extraterrestrials in Biblical Prophecy"

         Mary Taylor, Director, UFO Data Research & Intelligence Center

                    Joyce Allene, Director of Parapsychology,
                     UFO Data Research & Intelligence Center

         Shirley Mitchell, Internationally Known, Director and Founder,
                       The Center for Unlimited Perfection

         Music Provided By: Jon Anderson, Lead Singer for the Band "YES"
                         NEW WORK! Previously Unreleased

        Join  Us in a Provocative Discussion as we explore the  Spiritual
        and  Evolutionary  Implications  of  this  Phenomena  too   often
        Overlooked by the TECHNO-CRAZED Scientists of our Day.

                            Epona Ulster Productions
                   [Note: "t" in "Ulster" is Egyptian "Ankh"]

                    Saturday, October 24th, 9:00 am - 5:00 pm
                    San Jose LeBaron Hotel, 1350 N. First St.
                              Doors Open at 8:00 am
                           $75.00 Admission [!!!!!!!!]

                ($10 Discount for Registrations Paid by 10-16-92)

            To register and get more information, call [phone]
                         Limited Seating, Reserve Today
--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 22:41:22 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 75

Boy now you have gone and done it,  Gregg.  Here I had vowed to be nice on
the net.  And you come on and make some stupid,  half witted statements
like

>alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.
>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>or government conspiracies.


Let me share a few quote facts unquote with you.

1.  The ETS you are interested in,  that abduct and eat or experiment on
people make up less that .01 per cent of the ET population visiting this
planet.

2.  ETS in physical hardware, ships / bodies  that visit this planet make
up less than 1 per cent of the ETs visiting this planet.

3.  You,  and everyone else have an ET aspect (portion)  of yourself that
is very,  very interested in contacting said self.

4.  You will meet many,  many more ETS breathing in a hot tub than reading
a few books that were written to scare (entertainment for the unconscious)
and make money.

5.  If you find the ETs you are looking for they are going to eat you or
experiment on you.

Definition:  Half Wit - Someone who has been programmed and conditioned
since birth to use only their Left brain,  linear, logical thinking,  and
to completely shut down,  deny, and NOT believe in their intuitive,
creative, conceptual,  spiritual  thinking right brain.  Actually half wit
is a complement it should be more accurately labeled 1/20th wit. As the
left brain works with the primal,  survival brain and the right brain works
with the higher consciousness brain.  Yeah,  there is a higher
consciousnesses brain although it is atrophied in most college graduates.


>I am
>sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
>some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff".

Talking about???!!! Wendell Stevens is the worlds foremost UFO
investigator.  He worked on project bluebook and continued investigating
after he left the Air Force. He has written dozens of investigation reports
in the form of books.  He does not publish the books for money,  he does
1000-2000 copies to quote him  for his friends .  I have for over three
years attempted to get a real discussion going on the most documented UFO
Contact case on the planet.  I have Wendells permission to quote from any
of his four books on the case plus I have the Billie Meier contact notes
from Switzerland I would love to share in a discussion. The best half wits
like you can come up with for a discussion is da, it can t be, they did not
teach me that in school,  it can t be.


>Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
>their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
>planet.

Just hope your greys do not feed you to the lizzies (reptilians).

Don Showen

By the way I had the privledge of going on an abduction investigation case
with Wendell.  A guy up by Sacramento was abducted about twenty years ago.
The funny thing is that not only did the aliens program him to forget, when
he got back the govt. picked him up and put him through a code named brain
washing, forgetting technique that lasts for 15 or 20 years.


How is this J.Winston not one swear word.  Did I do good? ;-)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 05:17:17 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]> Andrew Todd Weinstein <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>or how about just shooting the junk towards the sun, and that way the
>the material won't be just floating around in space and the sun will get
>fed and will properly dispose of the waste.
>

Getting something into earth orbit may be pushing things, I do not think
anything discussed could impart enough energy to hit the sun, or get
close enough to vaporize anything.

Rich

[e-mail]


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From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 22:57:40 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 51

[e-mail] writes:

> Someone just informed me that the name of the show is Hairy and the
> Hendersons. Sorry about that.
> John Winston

You're forgiven. We're far enough away from there that even if we had a
TV, which we don't, that wouldn't be on it. :-). The world is a big
place :-). A good deal larger than the average human skull. Interesting
coincidence!

Actually we're having more trouble with Black Bears this season than
with Abominable Snowmen. Just last month I pulled over in one of those
picnic areas on highway 17 between Thunder Bay and the Sault, had to
take a leak you know, and this bear cub jumped on the bonnet of my car.
Which would have been ok if I'd been in the car, which I wasn't . . .

Nice bear, cute bear, wonderful cuddly little bear, now get the bloody
hell out of my way PLEASE! All the while seriously worried about where
Ma Bear was 'cos as everybody knows you DO NOT want to get between Ma
and her cubs.

Well I kinda eased up to the passenger door of my Pontiac, unlocked it
(thank GOD I had the key) and eased in. Stuck the key in the ignition,
reached over  V*E*R*Y S*L*O*W*L*Y and pulled the driver's door closed,
hit the button that closes the windows and started breathing again.

All the while the cub was watching me studiously. Then I hit the horn
and the bear hit the turf at a run removing only a modest amount of
paint from the car.

So what's this got to do with the New Age Religions? About as much as
your average Snowman in your average moutain in your average California
I figure. It was a spiritual experience.

Oops, this was Ontario, not California. I guess it must be off topic . .
.

Sorry.

<hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge> <did someone say this was an
international conference *not* local to the San Francisco Bay? HERESY!>

So John, how many beaver have you caught on your trap line so far this
winter? And have you figured out how the sasquatch manage to navigate
three metres of snow without snowshoes? *I'd* like to know *that* trick!

Oops, am I off topic again?

=Doug <the one with the big smile and the big beaver trap>

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!sgi!cdp!elite
From: Elite Enterprises <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:03 PDT
Subject: UFO INT'L ORGANIZATIONS NEEDED!!
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1296700009:000:120
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!elite    Oct 14 19:03:00 1992
Lines: 5


DOES ANYBODY HAVE A CONTACT FOR A LIST OF UFO-RELATED ORGANIZATIONS THAT
ARE STRICTLY LOCATED OVERSEAS? PLEASE E-MAIL!


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 08:41:05 GMT
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Boy now you have gone and done it,  Gregg.  Here I had vowed to be nice on
>the net.  And you come on and make some stupid,  half witted statements
>like
>
>>alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.
>>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>>or government conspiracies.
>
>consciousnesses brain although it is atrophied in most college graduates.
>

I was bad John W. I swore. Sorry.

What I think Gregg is interested in is the "facts". I can understand that.
Thats what I'm interested in too.

Maybe if he had gone to the Berkeley conference he could have seen how
people who are abducted come back spewing "newage sewage". He obviously
doesn't realize that we are all inseparably tied to the Creation in the end.
That's why we're here.

So anyone that can't force down a little bit of Newage sewage with his
facts, isn't really interested in  UFO's; they're just interested in petting
their egos or feeling knowledgable and superior.

These are the sort of quabbles that tend to divide the UFO community instead
of unite it. I would like to see that not happen.

There is no reason to have another news group.
there are a lot of ways to improve this one.

The reason I mentioned John is because I don't think you realize just how
much experience he has in this area. He can tell you all you'd care to
know about Adamski, or a host of other contactees, and UFO cases.
And people like JW are a good resource for this group. He is trying to
show us all the possibilities, not prove they are facts. We should start
using all our resources and drawing upon our collective conciousness instead
of squabbling over philosophies. We all have a lot of room for growth here,
and I'd rather not see anyone acting as if they know it all, cause we all know
it ain't so, right Gregg?

Jeff-

Xref: icaen alt.wanted.moslem.gay:247 talk.bizarre:78253 alt.cascade:2570 alt.alien.visitors:10202
Newsgroups: alt.wanted.moslem.gay,talk.bizarre,alt.cascade,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!cujo!cc.curtin.edu.au!rswiftrw
From: [e-mail] (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: More News Groups Required
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.wanted.moslem.gay,misc.test,talk.bizarre
Lines: 20
Sender: [e-mail] (News Manager)
Organization: -=[ Curtin University of Technology ]=-  Perth, Australia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:26:31 GMT

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Neub E. Imegront) writes:
> [e-mail] (Zaid Kadhim Salman) writes:

>>Actually, some people ARE that stupid, they seem to believe that all Muslims
>>blow up planes for a living.

> I don't think anyone believes that Muslims blow up planes for a living.
> They only do it freelance, and for the love of the job.

I can't believe that hoodlums blow up cranes for a living.
They only do it freelance, and for the love of the birds.

Rod
--
|            . . .   . . . . .          "It leaves us galloping up Diarrhoea|
|        +  +  +     +  +  +  +  +                  Drive without a saddle."|
|    *   *   *       *   *   *   *   *                                      |
|R    o    d         S    w    i    f    t        -- Kryten from "Red Dwarf"|
+-----------------------------------+---------+-----------------------------+
|  Curtin University of Technology  |  Perth  |  [e-mail]  |
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!strath-cs!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!buxduac
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 92 09:49:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>
> Its is boldly appearant to me that alt.alien.visitors needs to split.
> Lets leave these bozos to their wild tales of entertainment and go
> somewhere where we can have more "MEAT" to feed on. I haven't the
> faintest idea how to create a group and I don't know what we should
> name it. I am sure some interested party would be willing to help.
> Anyway, I will write a FAQ for it (with the help of others, I am
> sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
> some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff". All
> in favor...
>
> [e-mail]
>


Lets just say, I'm all in favour of this if you can find a way to "police" it.

Andy C
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!news.orst.edu!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!anthony
From: [e-mail] (Anthony Roberts)
Subject: Information Required.....
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet )
Nntp-Posting-Host: sequent.sequent.com
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 09:00:07 GMT
Lines: 18

Hi there.....

Being new to the subject i'm requesting for ANY information
regarding the UFO phenomena...

This intrest is purely for my own use....

I'd also like to request any video footage, or even,
to have a chance to talk to some people with expertese
over the phone ... If you would like to talk then call my
number in the UK and i will call YOU back....

The number is 44 0753 521650.

Or if you would like to send me some mail with your
number on, then i would be pleased to call you.....

Many thanks in advance.....Anthony Roberts
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis!stone
From: [e-mail] (Travis Stone)
Subject: Caveat to Jeff Papineau (Re: T. Walton...)
Message-ID: <stone.719151371@cwis>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:16:11 GMT
Lines: 36


Jeff Papineau (hope I spelled his last name correctly!)
writes:

> I sure do get tired of people that have to debunk every
> UFO contactee that ever makes any kind of notoriety...

Jeff: Don't you think that that's being a bit harsh?  After
all, healthy skepticism is much better than unyielding
acceptance---unless you're a body like the Catholic Church
during the Middle Ages, in which case you'd be tickled
pink if the vast majority of folk swallowed what you put
out without question.  (Catholics need not respond: you
know darn well what I said was true---and I stress the
"was"---for your particular franchise of the Christian
faith during those times.)

My point is, if given a choice, most people---including
you, because you strike me as being an intelligent feller---
would choose to go the route that says: hey, whoa, let's
not take what's dished out at face value...let's apply
Occam's Razor and see if there's anything under all the
fuzz!

The thing is, Jeff, that I think most folk have had the
wool pulled over their baby blues several times in their
lives, and it's left a nasty taste in their mouths, so
they (or should I say "we"?) tend to follow a simple
dictum best expressed by a line from an old Who song
(with apologies to Roger Daltry and company):

"Won't get fooled again..."

T.R. Stone
University of Nebraska-Omaha
Home of the Toughest Organic Chem Instructors in the Galaxy
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!hri.com!spool.mu.edu!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!dptg!ulysses!ulysses.att.com!rxga
From: [e-mail] (Rick Greer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Summary: signal vs. noise
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 92 12:07:30 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
Lines: 14


<<Kauffman's probably deliberate misunderstanding of Gregg Brown's
   entreaty for a more serious newsgroup dealing with the UFO
    phenomenon is deleted>>

Although the language Gregg Brown employed in his post is unnecessarily
provocative, sarcastic, and impolite, I agree with the basic message.
I too find myself skipping over 95% of the articles here in search
of the few that have any usable information in them.

I think we do need an `alt.alien.visitors.theory' where substantive,
rational discussion and report is the rule, not the exception.

Rick Greer
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12169 alt.alien.visitors:10207 sci.skeptic:32540
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 06:19:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Fellow Travellers: The world looks a little better today. Maybe
we should think like the quote that was in the hippy song that someone
can probubly remember exactly; Undoubtedly as we look back on this time
a 100,000 years from now we will realize that things have been going
on just as they were meant to be.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12170 alt.alien.visitors:10208
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 06:26:54 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Person: Yes I believe you have caught my mistake. I misspelled the
word Hyprobeans one time. Is that a funny name or what?
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12171 alt.alien.visitors:10209 alt.religion.kibology:4173
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 06:31:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Monster Watchers: Be advised Stan says Big Foot doesn't stink.
I maintain that some of them do, with great justo.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!aun.uninett.no!nuug!dhhalden.no!pc151.dhhalden.no!andreasa
From: [e-mail] (ANDREAS ARFF)
Subject: Re: Bill English
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 70
Sender: [e-mail] (Network News User)
Nntp-Posting-Host: pc151
Organization: Ostfold College
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:41:46 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy) writes:
>From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
>Subject: Re: Bill English
>Date: 12 Oct 92 17:29:13 GMT
>[e-mail] (ANDREAS ARFF) writes:
>
>>Think this is a little bit late but anyway...
>
>>I just thought of the Bill English posting some while ago.
>>It's all baloony.
>>Because it is impossible to interrupt phonecalls the way NSA, as he
>>says, did. (If it was NSA:-)
>>The simple reason is: You cannot, at the receivers end, know who makes the
>>call (within the technology in todays telephone net).
>>So, if someone made a call to his wife, it's impossible to determine who made
>>it.
>
>Not one to encourage paranoia, but...
>
>Ever hear of Caller ID?  What about ANI (Automatic Number Identification)?
>
>The point is that it is quite possible to know who the caller is at the
>receiver's end "within the technology in today's telephone net."
>
>This of course says nothing about the validity of any individual's claims
>of interrupted phone calls by the NSA.
>--
>
>Anson Kennedy                                                  [e-mail]
>Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)
>

About 16 years ago when Bill E. was removed from his office, Caller ID and
ANI was sience fiction for most people.

The telephone net is a "connect one way and disconnect when finnished".
The only way to communicate, the telephones inbetween, is to use signals
that the human ear cannot detect. With dozens of T&T Co's in USA, with
almost as many different standards, to communicate with a foreign country.
I can only say, you'll have a hard time to convince me you're right.
The communication protocoll switches, that would be needed, would be larger
than you could fit into a house. Don't bullshit me. No way! You guys are far
out if you eats his story.

We all know that it is possible to trace a connection, but it
takes more time to do, than to connect the telephones.
How do you suppose that any Intelligence Agency could do that faster than the
connection is established, and at the same time, interrupt the telephone
call (at the other side, remember, Bill said 'at the other side').
It could come from "any" telephone in the US, and end up at any telephone
in UK.
Most people can be reached at at least 10 numbers. (Friends, parents, jobb
etc)
I suggest to you american analfabets to read about telephone technology,
both modern, and elderly. Not only advertisments.
Use your common sense, and be a little bit more critisizing of what you
read.


PS. There is no news group that waists so much bandwidth on bullshit as
this. Please stop it. It could be a really interresting news group if it
wasn't swamped by 'The grays inseminated me with a greenish liquid that
tasted like strawberry, through the mouth, with an 5 f. long foot, with
fish-shells on it, that where invisible...' and bullshit like that. DS.
"Also for the not religous confessor, there is a mystery of higher values,
who's birth mankind - to the last - builds upon. They are indisputible. And
often disregarded. Seldom you hear them beeing prized, as seldom as you hear
a seeing man prizeing what he sees." Per Lagerkvist, The Fist
(Free translation from Swedish)
              --Andreas Arff  [e-mail]--
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:32553 alt.alien.visitors:10211
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: "Extraterrestrials and Angels": Who Are these Clowns?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:23:51 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
|>         An  ad in the "San Jose Metro," Oct. 8, 1992. (Does anybody  know
|>         anything  about  this  crowd?  My guess  is  that  they  must  be
|>         associated with some already-existing New Age group or cult, else
|>         the attendance at this seminar would likely be zero.)
[...]
|>                 We Are Not Alone! They Are Here ... Who Are They?
|>
|>                             EXTRATERRESTRIALS/ANGELS
|>
|>                      Are Current UFO Sightings Linked to the
|>                      Angelic Visitations of Biblical Times?
|>
[...]
|>                     Saturday, October 24th, 9:00 am - 5:00 pm
|>                     San Jose LeBaron Hotel, 1350 N. First St.
|>                               Doors Open at 8:00 am
|>                            $75.00 Admission [!!!!!!!!]

Hey, I'm only going to take responsibility for stuff in my own backyard!
You guys out there are going to have to decipher/debug this one on
your own!

(Sheesh. Do they think those of us in the rest of the world have
any way at all of guessing what might be going on in the Bay Area?
:-))

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!utcsri!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!watmath!neumann.uwaterloo.ca!alopez-o
From: [e-mail] (Alex Lopez-Ortiz)
Subject: Re: UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Owner)
Organization: University of Waterloo
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:42:10 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Tarl
Neustaedter) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>,
> [e-mail] writes:
> >                            UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
> >                I should think that by now he would have heard about the
> > >           Roswell Incident in which UFO WRECKAGE and ALIEN BODIES
> were
> >           found on a ranch (in New Mexico, I think), gathered up by the
> > >           U.S. military, and hidden away in an Air Force hanger
> >           somewhere.
>
> Perhaps the New Mexico stuff is a hoax? Do you have more knowledge of
> this wreckage than Carl Sagan does? Perhaps you've seen it yourself?
>
> >        The wreckage included materials NOT KNOWN on Earth,
>
> Different elements? Different colors? Different alloys? Different
> flavors?
> How was it determined that they were NOT KNOWN on Earth?

According to Unsolved Mysteries, witnesses identify the materials as
plastics. At the time they didn't know they were such, but when the
plastic era arrived they recognized some of them.

Furthermore, from the accounts the bodies could have been severely
charred human carcases. And the "alien spacecrat" an experimental
aircraft.

There was a military installation nearby, and what better than the
desert to try new planes.


--
Alex Lopez-Ortiz                              [e-mail]
Department of Computer Science                      University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Ontario                                                   Canada
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:19044 alt.alien.visitors:10213
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Space Domination Initiative
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 16:36:00 GMT
Lines: 503

-------------  FORWARDED FROM misc.activism.progressive  -------------

          Star Wars:  Turning the Strategic Defense Initiative
                  into the Space Domination Initiative

                    by Jeffrey Klein and Dan Stober

     Reprinted with permission from In These Times, Sept. 30 - Oct.13
                     [Subscription info at bottom]

A good place to comprehend how the U.S. plans to fight 21st-century wars
is beneath a mountain in Colorado.  A 1,400-foot tunnel bored through
Cheyenne Mountain leads to an underground village of spring-mounted
buildings built to sway in a nuclear attack.  These headquarters of
the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) are webbed to the
nearby Falcon Air Force Base, the first operational center for "star
wars."

Their combined computers, crunching data from radar installations,
ground-based telescopes and satellites 22,300 miles above Earth, offer
a real-time view of all missile launches and bomber runs around the
world, and everything orbiting the planet, down to space junk the size
of a softball.

A good part of the most recent war was fought from here.  The hot
exhaust flames of Saddam Hussein's Scud missiles were caught by
satellite sensors, and the news was beamed to computer screens inside
this mountain, here the targets were calculated instantaneously and
warnings flashed via space back to Saudi Arabia or Israel.

Space gave the U.S. forces every conceivable advantage in the Gulf War.
Satellites told commanders exactly where their own troops were and
helped pick targets on the other side.  Allied communications were
handled by satellites, while Saddam's forces lost their ground-based
communications early in the bombing.  The U.S. had an advantage even in
predicting the weather, a key element in the aerial campaign.  In short,
U.S. troops saw everything, and Iraq was left deaf, dumb and blind in
what the Air Force calls the "first space war.

The pentagon wants the next war to be controlled and all but decided
with weapons in the "high ground" of space, directed from
electronic-control rooms in places like Cheyenne Mountain.

With the realization that control of space leads to worldwide military
superiority comes the further realization that the first country to
flood Earth's orbital lanes with weaponry may be able to prevent anyone
else from doing the same.

Wouldn't the U.S. be smart to secure dominance while it has no
competitors, while the former Soviet Union is on the ropes and the next
enemy--whoever that might be--hasn't started building up?

The answer from the leading edge of the defense establishment is a
resounding yes.  The technological research is already underway to
convert the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), the "star wars"
anti-missile program, from a supposedly defensive system into a web of
expensive, Earth-circling offensive weapons.

This militarization of space would represent a quantum leap in weaponry
similar to the invention of the nuclear weapon and the Intercontinental
Ballistic Missile.  And yet, there's been little discussion in Congress
or elsewhere of the tremendous financial costs, the technical problems
or the odds that generating a space-based arms race may leave the
world a more dangerous place than it is now.

"You cannot start shooting down satellites.  What kind of law-abiding
country are we? asks Kosta Tsipis, a Massachusetts Institute of
Technology physicist and SDI expert.  "We don't want to knock down
civilian satellites.  We don't want somebody else shooting down ours."

But the confidence that we can police the world without retaliation was
reflected earlier in the year in a leaked Bush administration defense
planning document for 1994-1999.  The draft proposed that potential
competitors "be deterred from even aspiring to a larger regional or
global role" by keeping them inside U.S.-dominated security alliances.

A space blockade would effectively ring the planet with barbed wire,
making the whole world a security zone.  Errant countries would be
punished from the sky, with American troops entering the fray only to
mop-up.

Behind this movement are many of the same men and organizations
responsible for launching "star wars" a decade ago.

They include Edward Teller, co-inventor of the hydrogen bomb, adviser to
presidents and currently Cold Warrior without a cause; Lowell Wood,
Teller's protege and technological guru at Lawrence Livermore
Laboratory; Daniel Graham, the space-obsessed retired Air Force general
who runs the lobbying and research group High Frontier; and the Her-
itage Foundation, the conservative think tank that has been highly
influential in the Reagan-Bush era.

BRILLIANT PLANS

To learn more about the clandestine shifts taking place in SDI, we went
to the annual gathering of the U.S.  Space Foundation, in the shadow of
NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado Springs.

In formal speeches in the convention center auditorium, the generals
and admirals talked enthusiastically about using space for military
missions.  In the hallways and in the exhibit center, around the
rocket-and-satellite booths of the defense contractors, the profes-
sionals revealed what was already underway.

The reconfiguration of SDI has already begun in the national labs and
the workshops of defense organizations in an ad hoc fashion.  The new
version is a war-fighting machine capable of dominating battlefields and
threatening a space blockade.  It will be built on Brilliant Pebbles
and Brilliant Eyes, the satellites with the odd names that are at the
heart of the Bush administration's plans for SDI.

The official anti-missile scheme calls for a constellation of
surveillance satellites (Brilliant Eyes), watching for fiery rocket
plumes, the telltale indicator of an enemy launch.  In a lower orbit, a
larger constellation of human-sized interceptors (Brilliant Pebbles)
wait for the signal, then attack the missiles and destroy them.

In the unofficial version, much of which has been invented at Livermore,
the Eyes will be equipped with radars, lasers, telescopes, antennae and
sensors to allow military commanders to see practically every square
foot of Earth--and analyze that information instantly.

The satellites would employ laser communications to pass the data from
one Eye to another, data circling the globe at the speed of light.  In
the heat of war, Eyes would beam consolidated pictures of the
battlefield directly to the on-scene commander below, in real time,
bypassing the delays and confusion of the Gulf war, when satellite
signals were first sent to the U.S. and then relayed to Saudi Arabia.

And the Pebbles?  They would serve multiple combat and blockade roles.

In a conventional war, according to a proposal being promoted around
the Pentagon by Lowell Wood, Brilliant Pebbles would be ordered to leave
their orbits and fly downward at high speed to hit targets on the sur-
face of the planet with great precision.

"Lowell has argued that you could use these things to attack tanks,
airplanes, anything else," says a Lawrence Livermore physicist.
"They like to say that around here, but not when they go to Congress."

In Colorado Springs, we asked Teller while he was walking to lunch one
day if Pebbles could be used to hit enemy command bunkers, a
high-priority target in the war with Iraq.  He stopped walking.

"Look," he said, in his commanding form of speech.  "Yes.  And in a war,
you would."

In a hallway at Colorado Springs, we also asked James Carlson, the SDI
office deputy for strategic defense, about Wood's claims.  "I know," he
sighed with a shrug.  "He calls them Endopebbles."  The prefix endo-
means Within"--in this case, within the Earth's atmosphere.

Could Endopebbles be what is code-named Brilliant Fingers, one of the
many "black budget" programs on which Wood is working?  The Pentagon
has traditionally hidden its most controversial research and development
projects in its secret budget.  "Think of the human anatomy," confides a
Lawrence Livermore physicist.  "For every anatomical part, there's a
'Brilliant' technology.  "Star wars" scientists are also researching,
for example, tiny sensors, disguised to look like rocks, that would be
dropped in large numbers over the battlefield.  They would then, their
inventors promise, transmit data to satellites.

But these endoweapons may be fringe projects.  Threatening enemy
satellites would seem to be Pebbles' main goal.

In their blockade role, Pebbles would be transformed into enforcement
battleships, poised to destroy any missile attempting to run the
blockade and put a satellite in orbit.

HIGH FRONTIER DIRECTOR

Daniel Graham is blunt.  Standing in the exhibit area near a full-scale
model of a Pebble, he said:  "What Brilliant Pebbles would give you is
control of access to space.  You can say, 'You can come up here if
you're on a peaceful mission, but you can't come up if you're going to
do something nasty.'"  Pebbles would provide, Graham explained, "the
kind of control that the British once had on the high seas."  The
British, of course, used that control not only to defend that homeland
but also to create an empire.

Pebbles, according to some experts in Colorado Springs, would make
ideal blockade ships.  Their original mission, after all, was to shoot
down missiles--and knocking down a single missile attempting to launch,
for example, a North Korean spy satellite would be light years easier
than stopping a barrage of Russian submarine-launched missiles.

A senior executive with a defense contractor, a manager with a long
history of involvement with U.S. space policy, said the use of
Brilliant Pebbles for space-blockade purposes would be "profound," and
that such a use "had been discussed in Secretary of Defense Dick
Cheney's office."

Equally important is the role of Pebbles as anti-satellite weapons, or
ASATs, to knock out satellites already in orbit.  Having the ability to
eliminate any satellite, whether military or commercial (the difference
between the two is diminishing), would provide the U.S. with a drastic
military advantage in war and a huge bully stick in peacetime.

Without satellites, potential adversaries would be as much in the dark
as Saddam's forces were during the Gulf War.  Without space systems,
Saddam was blind.  With them, noted Gen.  Kutyna, "he would have seen
Schwarzkopf's left hook, his Hail Mary maneuver [into Iraq], and allied
lives would have been lost."

We asked Kutyna about Brilliant Pebbles as an ASAT weapon.  Pebbles were
not "optimized" for that task, he said, but added, "that technology,
however, could be applicable.  So a spinoff of a Brilliant Pebble could
be developed that could become an ASAT weapon."

Already in orbit, with its own propulsion and guidance system, a Pebble
could easily steer itself into the path of the satellite of another
nation.  Daniel Graham described this ASAT ability as "the great
unspoken" of the SDI program.

Although the U.S. military has long wanted ASAT weapons, Congress has
denied them, fearing an expensive arms race in space.  But the generals
have not given up.

"I still have an ASAT very high on my priority list," Kutyna said in
Colorado Springs.

"Several of the things that SDI is doing are applicable to the broader
purpose of space control," concludes Baker Spring, a "star wars"
advocate at the Heritage Foundation.

A few short years ago, the warrior's dream of dominating space would
have been all but impossible, for one very simple reason:  The U.S.
shared military dominance of the planet with the Soviet Union.  Treaties
were in place to block a costly and dangerous space arms race, and each
side closely monitored the other's progress.

In his 1983 "star wars" speech, President Reagan offered to share with
the Soviets a leak-proof umbrella that would render nuclear weapons
obsolete.  Today, the former Soviets still being invited to come in
under our umbrella not as partners in a missile-proof world but as
blue-collar workers helping us to arm the heavens.  They'd do the heavy
lifting.

The day we visited with Edward Teller in his office at the Hoover
Institution, he said his chief geopolitical worry was finding employment
for his former counterparts, the Russian defense scientists.

Teller, worried about the Russians?  It turned out that for many months
he'd been lobbying the Bush administration to buy the SS-18s, the big
missiles of the Soviet Union, and use them to launch Brilliant Pebbles,
which currently are stranded without a ride.

"This might be nonsense," he said later, in that way that telegraphs
that he is completely serious.  "Why not transform them ... for the
delivery of these low-flying satellites?  In this way, we can have them
in two years rather than three or four."

Recently, Henry Cooper, head of the SDI program, went public with the
same proposal.

The Russian scientists could use the work, and their government could
use the money.  But the use of those SS-18s to launch Brilliant Pebbles
would violate the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty, which has governed
nuclear relations between the superpowers for decades.

Because the treaty obstructs the star warriors' way at every step, the
Bush administration is determined to get out of it.

So bothersome is the ABM treaty that President Bush is personally
pushing Boris Yeltsin to yield.  Teller's missile purchases would be a
way of buying the Russians out of the treaty.  On the other hand, U.S.
military contractors don't want competition in the launch-vehicle
business.  Some advisers suggest that the Russians can simply be
silenced with foreign aid.

"If the Russians want billions in economic assistance, we should at
least ask for some relief from the ABM treaty, and then we could move
forward," argues Jim Hackett, a policy executive at Titan Systems in San
Diego and a member of Bush's Arms Control Advisory Board.

When the public marketing of space control finally begins, the main
selling point will doubtless be the proliferation of missile tech-
nology and nuclear weapons in the Third World countries, an ironic
pitch, since the Bush and Reagan administrations have done little to
curtail this proliferation.

Space domination is already being testmarketed with hard and soft
sells.

The Heritage Foundation, Washington's premier conservative think tank,
is proposing the hard sell:  The U.S. should simply seize control of
space preemptively.  We should warn other countries that they have no
guaranteed right of access to space.

"If Third World leaders realize that the U.S. and its allies will
destroy their satellites or render them useless in case of war, they
will be less likely to make the investment in the first place," says a
Heritage paper by Baker Spring published in May.

Space technology is becoming the "equalizer" that makes small countries
a military danger to larger ones, and something must be done.  "The
primary obstacle in the effort to control space technology is the
presumption in the international community that all countries are
entitled to access to space," the report concludes, adding, almost
indignantly:  "This principle even is embodied in a treaty."

"KEEP-OUT" ZONES

The Heritage Foundation backgrounder proposes that the U.S. opt out of
this treaty--the 1967 U.N.  Treaty on Outer Space.  To mollify
international concerns a bit, small countries with a need for civilian
communications satellites would be allowed to purchase launch services
from the U.S.  But since any satellite is suspect in wartime, the U.S.,
the backgrounder says, should quickly develop a "capability to enforce a
military 'keep-out' zone in space over a battle area."

In the same vein, Gen.  Donald Hard, director of space programs for the
Air Force, wistfully noted in a speech to the National Space Club in
June that there was no technical reason why the U.S. could not have
weapons in space.  "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out
that you can crater an enemy runway with a space-based offensive weapon,
but first you had better figure out how to get through that policy
debate in Congress to get agreement to go ahead and shoot those kinds of
technologies."

Astronomer Carl Sagan is repelled by the prospect of space keep-out
zones, endoweapons and imperial grabs.  "There is nothing more
appropriate than exploring and utilizing space on behalf of the human
species and not on behalf of whichever nation was lucky enough by
historical circumstances to get to space first."

Sagan grants that grabs have been "the historic practice of the human
species.  You either copy the guys with leading weaponry or you're
inundated by them.  Eventually, the whole planet is filled with the
military culture of the most technically fearsome society.  That works
fine up to the point that world-transforming technologies are
available.  At that point, the conquistadors have to be very careful,
because their weaponry could redound to destroy them."

The star warriors are aware that peaceful global perspectives are in
vogue.  Publicly taking the soft-sell tack, Teller and Wood are pro-
moting the civilian uses of a fleet of Brilliant Eyes.  The Eyes, they
say, could be used to study crops, spot fires, give a quick first glance
at disaster areas, chart forest patterns, analyze clouds and the
atmosphere (with orbiting lasers), monitor global warming and trans-
form weather forecasting from voodoo into a science.

This attempt to broaden SDI's base of support is backed by market
research.  According to a poll released in March by Rockwell Inter-
national Corp., deployment of satellites to monitor the Earth's
environment is by far the favorite space program of American voters.

Still, there remains an enormous political hurdle before a full-scale
space weapons system wins public backing.  It is the absence of what
Air Force Lt.  Gen.  Thomas Moorman Jr. called "an acceptable threat,"
now that the Cold War is over.

With no credible enemies on the horizon, and the historical need to
rationalize military buildups as defensive in nature, some star warriors
are advocating the use of space weapons to protect our allies against
enemy missile attacks in foreign theaters.

Even with an ostensibly defensive armada, the U.S. may be tempted to
intervene all around the globe.  Consider the argument put forth by
James Carlson, the SDI office deputy for strategic defense, in support
of anti-ballistic missiles.

Suppose, he suggested, that the U.S. was in a limited conflict with a
future Saddam, instituting a trade embargo against him and bombing his
factories.  What if Saddam then said, "I have a secret nuclear weapon on
a missile, and if you don't lift your trade embargo and stop bombing our
factories, I'll launch it!"  With an SDI system in place to stop this
missile, Carlson said, we could call his bluff.  Carlson's example is
telling.  In it, the U.S. has already inflicted an embargo and bombed a
foreign country.  ABMs would allow us to continue these actions with
impunity.  And, of course, Carlson's system is not primarily defensive;
the ABMs are cogs in a war machine.

Other star warriors are looking at renascent empires for grand
acceptable threats to match our grand military ambitions.

"I think the country most likely to challenge American control of
access to space is the Japanese, says Graham, the founder of High
Frontier.  "Star wars" would thus become another Great White Fleet,
steaming over to Tokyo to frighten the Japanese once again.

Meanwhile, Edward Teller is saying that we must prepare for an
inevitable military challenge from a reunited Germany.

In the presence or absence of an enemy, none of the plans to dominate
space is guaranteed to work.  There are voluminous technical
difficulties; hardly anything has actually been tested in space, and
much of that has failed.  In fact, almost 10 years after Reagan's
speech, the V.S. has spent at least $29 billion on one of the largest
research and development projects in the nation's history, with vir-
tually nothing to show.  There is no missile shield of any kind.  The
overall blueprint has changed almost annually, while entire projects
have simply been abandoned.

"Star wars has failed ... it is a fraud," concludes Aldric Saucier
with sadness and anger.  The highest-ranking member of the "star wars"
bureaucracy to break ranks, Saucier says the entire SDI program has
become little more than a pipeline of cash to defense contractors, "like
a big Toys R Us."

The missile tests of Pebbles and other SDI interceptors have been, in
essence, rigged, Saucier claims.  Far from having to find a speeding
target in space and destroy it under realistic conditions, the
interceptors have been guided right to their targets, he says.  And even
then, some of them have missed.

The most recent miss was a June 19 warhead interception experiment,
one of three admitted failures in 1992 alone.  SDI has also been plagued
by launch explosions, forced destructions of off-course rockets,
premature detonations and malfunctioning sensors and satellites.  In
contrast to the hoopla surrounding space shuttle delays, these failures
have received notice only in the military trade press.

Despite SDI's lack of technical success an frequent predictions of its
demise in Congress, the president has pressed aggressively ahead each
year with a new round of funding The criticism that SDI's shield is full
of hole hasn't been taken too seriously by its proponents, because the
real purpose of "star wars is to rule space.  Pentagon officials know
that although a defensive team system must be almost perfect--one
mistake could mean a city obliterated by a hydrogen bomb--an offensive
system does not have to reach such high standards.  If you miss your
target the first time, you simply take another shot.

Similarly, a price tag $1 trillion, which i what Rep.  Leon Panetta
(D-CA), the head a the House Budget Committee, says a completed SDI
would ultimately cost, doesn't seen too high to the military if the
prize might b control of space.

Militarizing space, of course, means further pollution of space.  Before
Sputnik was launched, there were no man-made object circling the globe.
Now there are millions, i you count the fingernail-size flecks of pain
and other material from old spacecraft that have exploded or collided
with each other Traveling at 17,000 miles per hour, the smallest piece
of space junk can have deadly consequences for whatever it strikes.
Once we begin testing ASATs, we will generate more debris, which will
increase the probability of accidental collisions.

Then there are intentional collisions.  Even if the U.S. establishes a
dominant presence, other nations may respond with variations of Saddam's
torched-oil-wells strategy.  They may try to counteract a space blockade
by exploding nuclear weapons in space or littering the orbital lanes
with so much fast-moving shrapnel that nothing can survive there.

The Pentagon views such confrontations with equanimity, as business as
usual.  To the military mind, such a scenario paradoxically proves that
the U.S. needs to secure the high ground before the crazies gain a
foothold.

Richard Garwin, an IBM fellow and longtime defense consultant to the
U.S. government, warns that we can become the crazies. "One really
has to watch out for these harebrained schemes that will convert the
U.S. into a benevolent dictator that will run the entire world for the
overall benefit of humankind as we see it.  We have to have a reasonable
sharing of power with other people because otherwise we will be
deposed from that king-of-the-heap position."

Carl Sagan agrees that our treaty-busting attempts to rule space are
likely to earn us the hatred of developing countries.  "As in biological
evolution, every measure has a countermeasure.  If, in fact, the U.S.
looks to be developing a credible threat, there would be a really
strong impetus for the French, the Japanese, the Chinese, the European
Community as a whole, the former Soviets to now develop comparable
capabilities of their own."

Gen.  Kutyna is clearly expecting some reaction.  "Whatever the enemy
space systems will be ... we'll develop countermeasures," he said.

And thus the space arms race will be on, with no convincing argument
that anyone will be the safer for it.

--------

Dan Stober is a San Jose Mercury News staff writer.

Jeffrey Klein is the new editor of Mother Jones.

--------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: SETI
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: SETI
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:53:10 GMT
Lines: 52





                            SETI


This might be a clever way for the US government to spill the beans.

My suggestion:

1a) After 2 months/days/weeks of SETI:

Hey we've discovered a far-off signal which is definitely intelligent, about
200 million (or whatever) light years away. (No danger at all). - So there
*is* ET intelligence out there. We are *not* alone. Wow! Fancy that! etc.
1b) Pause and monitor public reaction.


2a) After 2 years/months, depending on 1b:

Hey! Now we have discovered a further 23 (or 7695) sources of intelligent
signals. We are certainly not alone. Wow! Fancy that!
2b) Wait for and assess public reaction.


3a) (Time depending on b):

Hey! Some of these signals seem to be trying to contact *us*...
3b) ..

4) Hey, they've replied to our message, and they sound real friendly ..

5) Hey, they want to visit, and they sound real friendly ..

6) Hey, they're here, and they're friendly .. (TV..)

7) Hey, they're giving us lots of incredible technology .. (TV) ..

8) The ETs are working well with us - look at what we can do now .. (TV) ..

(9) (For the prophets of doom) .. Well, we've had a little problem ..

(10) (For the prophets of doom) .. They're out of our control ..

                    - Would it work?

                                                            Paul

Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:32559 alt.alien.visitors:10215 sci.astro:21921
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Menzel and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: ufo
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <gdavis.719083919@griffin> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:40:37 GMT
Lines: 88

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Roger Black) writes:
>In article <gdavis.719083919@griffin> [e-mail] (Gary Davis)
>writes:
>
>>The first volume I selected was the 1977 publication by DoubleDay,
>>"The UFO Enigma", Donald Menzel, Harvard Astronomer.

I should point out that Menzel's co-author here was Dr. Ernest Taves,
a respected psychiatrist. It was suggested in an earlier post that Menzel
should have gotten proper input from a mental health professional on
the matter of the Hill case. Obviously, he did.


>Menzel should be taken with a very large dose of salt.  A number of the
>people who dealt with him in the early years of ufology (such as E.J.
>Ruppelt, the head of Project Blue Book from 1951-53, and J. Allen
>Hynek, the science adviser to Blue Book for many years) apparently
>considered Menzel to be arrogant, devious, and dishonest.  Many of his
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"scientific" explanations of UFO sightings were so outlandish that even
>people who were sympathetic to his conclusions were embarrassed by his
>arguments.  People on both sides of the UFO controversy had a great
>deal of difficulty understanding why such an intelligent and capable
>scientist was so determined to make an ass of himself in public when it
>came to UFOs.

This is nothing short of slander against a respected astronomer, whose
contributions to the science of astronomy far outweigh any those of any
pro-UFOlogist in the field. I agree that Menzel was sometimes arrogant
(many distinguished, elderly scientists sometimes get that way). I
further agree that sometimes he was careless (who isn't?). But
to call him "devious and dishonest" is a reprehensible and groundless
insult to the memory of an oustanding scientist, who taught and did research
for many years at Harvard University.


>Stanton Friedman may have found the answer to that question after
>Menzel's death, when he obtained access to Menzel's personal papers and
>discovered that Menzel led a double life:  Academic scientist by day,
>intelligence agent by night.  Over the years he apparently worked for
>both the CIA and the NSA, as well as a number of military agencies and
>industrial concerns, and he held a Top Secret Ultra clearance.  Given
>the history of the intelligence community's systematic subversion of
>UFO organizations and their repeated efforts to spread confusion and
>disinformation on the subject, Menzel's ties to that community are more
>than a little suspicious.

Whoever has more confidence in Friedman, who calls himself the "flying
saucer physicist" and has been a full-time UFO promoter for many
years, than in Dr. Menzel, is seriously deluded. Friedman has
been promoting many UFO hoaxes over the years, including the ridiculous
"Gulf Breeze UFO photos" and the "MJ-12 papers". If we are comparing
credibility and character, I would rate that of a respected scientist
like Menzel over that of a slick UFO huckster like Friedman any day.

Friedman and pals would like us to forget that, during World War II,
virtually EVERY scientist in the U.S. became involved in military
research, most of which was highly classified. Even the late Dr. J.
Allen Hynek, a saint to those in the UFO movement, did classified
research on military projects during World War II. I heard him say
this myself. Even Asimov and Heinlein did secret military research,
and had high clearances; does this make them suspect?

>In any case, for the most part his activities in these areas were kept
>secret from the public, his academic and scientific colleagues, his
>closest friends, and even his family.  But they do seem to have been
>known to the author(s) of the so-called "MJ-12" UFO documents, who put
>Menzel's name on an otherwise plausible list of government officials in
>the alleged UFO control group.  This is, in fact, one of the strongest
>arguments that the MJ-12 documents, while almost certainly bogus,
>originated from somewhere within the bowels of the U.S. intelligence
>community instead of some lone hoaxer's basement.

The "MJ-12 papers" are garbage. They were confabulated by a hoaxer
using a photocopied signature of Harry Truman taken from a real
letter in the Truman library. Get real.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.univie.ac.at!chx400!sparc2!news
From: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors, my beloved
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: my beloved group
Sender: [e-mail] (usenet)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Paul Milsom)
Organization: Neu-Technikum Buchs
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:23:27 GMT
Lines: 43



There are no "facts", there are no "sensible" discussions about UFOs.
And it will stay like that until some government brings the ETs on tv.

But where else can you have a really good laugh every day? Where else do some
people fly off the handle at the slightest chance, leaving you to see how
mature you are for not doing the same? Of course, there is material which
doesn't appeal to you. But it must appeal to someone, just as the material
that doesn't appeal to them may appeal to you. I love this group exactly
*because* it is so full of variety. I try to imagine what those people are
really like. Variety is the spice of life, and if you want out, maybe you are
not tolerant enough or your horizon is too limited. There seem to be people
who really believe everything (even *all* of John's stuff), and those whose
minds cannot bear to think of change ..

If you want something more interesting, then just email someone with a
challenge, or a friendly question. All the people I've talked to on email are
very friendly in reality, in fact some very interesting people ..

(If I got abducted, I wouldn't talk about it on the net, nor would I talk
about any CE3 in the group. I'd email a few people and ask them what *they'd*
do. Maybe they would then say to the group: "Well, someone's asked me to tell
you that.." )

I wouldn't like to lose any of our "regulars" in this group.
"Please don't go, please don't go.."

Since I'm here:
Where can I get hold of "E.T 101, The Cosmic Instruction Manual"? Nobody can
get me a copy here in Switzerland, and I've even got the ISBN! Can anybody
give me a mailing address where they'll send me a copy?  Thanks.

Hey! Did you like my SETI thing? Nothing New Age there! (for a change!)

                                                    Paul.




Paul Milsom
[e-mail]
Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland
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From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Menzel and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: ufo
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <gdavis.719083919@griffin> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:36:42 GMT
Lines: 55

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Roger Black) writes:
>>In article <gdavis.719083919@griffin> [e-mail] (Gary Davis)
>>writes:
>>
>>>The first volume I selected was the 1977 publication by DoubleDay,
>>>"The UFO Enigma", Donald Menzel, Harvard Astronomer.
>
>I should point out that Menzel's co-author here was Dr. Ernest Taves,
>a respected psychiatrist. It was suggested in an earlier post that Menzel
>should have gotten proper input from a mental health professional on
>the matter of the Hill case. Obviously, he did.
>
>
>>Menzel should be taken with a very large dose of salt.  A number of the
>>people who dealt with him in the early years of ufology (such as E.J.
>>Ruppelt, the head of Project Blue Book from 1951-53, and J. Allen
>>Hynek, the science adviser to Blue Book for many years) apparently
>>considered Menzel to be arrogant, devious, and dishonest.  Many of his
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>"scientific" explanations of UFO sightings were so outlandish that even
>>people who were sympathetic to his conclusions were embarrassed by his
>>arguments.  People on both sides of the UFO controversy had a great
>>deal of difficulty understanding why such an intelligent and capable
>>scientist was so determined to make an ass of himself in public when it
>>came to UFOs.
>
>This is nothing short of slander against a respected astronomer, whose
>contributions to the science of astronomy far outweigh any those of any
>pro-UFOlogist in the field.

Read that again, he said... "and J. Allen Hynek, the science adviser to
                                 --------------
Blue Book for many years) apparently considered Menzel to be arrogant,
                          ----------------------------------
devious, and dishonest." Now you may say that "J. Allen Hynek" did not
say this, but if he did, then the statement is accurate, even if the part
about Menzel is not.

>                          I agree that Menzel was sometimes arrogant
>(many distinguished, elderly scientists sometimes get that way). I
>further agree that sometimes he was careless (who isn't?). But
>to call him "devious and dishonest" is a reprehensible and groundless
>insult to the memory of an oustanding scientist, who taught and did research
>for many years at Harvard University.

[._.._]

>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

Rich

[e-mail]


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rajat Jain)
Subject: Re: Alien Races?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: scotty.ecs.umass.edu
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:06:18 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ben Cushman) writes:
|>
|> Hello out there--
|>
|> A while back I encountered a post on the various types of alien races that
|> we know about.  Unfortunately, I lost my copy of this post.  If anyone has
|> information detailing the various alien races, please e-mail it to me.
|>
|>                 Thank you--
|>
|>                     Ben Cushman

me too :-)

Thanks,
Rajat
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt)
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:13:40 GMT
Lines: 10

I will say just one more thing, then I will keep quiet on this
subject.  This is the most important thing: There is no need to be
mean to each other.  There is far too much invective on Usenet, and
too little courtesy in the world in general.  If you encourage others,
you will reach your own goal faster.  Being mean will hold you back.
I have tried it both ways.

Christopher Schmidt
Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: maybe a mailing list
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 18:06:01 GMT
Lines: 11

I would also like to see both the "humor" and the dizzy nonsense filtered out.
I don't think a new group will do that.  The dizzies think they are being
serious (and would not exclude themselves) and the "humor" posters always
think they're being witty in a way that will appeal to thousands.

Maybe a mailing list or a moderated group would work, but it would require a
great deal of effort on the part of some individual to keep it up.

I'm a temp consultant and I lose my net account at the end of the month, so I
can't volunteer even if I wanted to.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!news.weeg.uiowa.edu!news
From: [e-mail] (Al Jagnow)
Subject: Re: Portable Ufo detector, is it out there?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: al.weeg.uiowa.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Al Jagnow)
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:51:34 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (ozzy)
writes:
> Is there anyone out there on the net that has a copy of the portable
> Ufo detector? I would be very happy if some-one could send it on to me.
> Methinks the net address is [e-mail]
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> ozzy
>
> --
> [e-mail]
If I remember correctly, UFO's produce magnetic disturbances - simply hang a
magnet from a bare piece of copper wire. Place a loop of bare copper wire
around, but not touching the wire from which the magnet is hanging - as close
to the magnet as possible. Connect the two wires in series with a battery and
an electric bell or buzzer. When the magnet moves, the wires will touch,
completing the circuit and sounding an alarm. Building the magnet assembly
inside a wood or plastic box will prevent the wind from causing false alarms.
The longer the pendulum and the stronger the magnet, the more sensitive the
alarm. Needless to say, the support for the pendulum must be made of wood or
plastic. Try not to use any magnetic materials in the construction of the
detector.

If the magnet were massive enough, the wire flexible enough, and the contact
loop small enough, this might also serve as an earthquake detector.

I suppose you could do something with a Hall Effect device.....  It would be
more elegant, but probably not any more effective :-)

Jag

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From: [e-mail] (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Re: Bill English
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:08:30 GMT
Lines: 30

[e-mail] (ANDREAS ARFF) writes:

>About 16 years ago when Bill E. was removed from his office, Caller ID and
>ANI was sience fiction for most people.

[Useless flame deleted]

Look, all I was pointing out is that it is possible to know from what
telephone a call is made using standard phone services currently "within
the technology of the net."  Of course you can't know who is on the other
end of the telephone, just what number the call comes from.

I personally use Caller ID to screen incoming calls, it is a common service
in the states; the local cable television company uses ANI (and has been for
over 5 years) for pay-per-view events.  While this stuff has not been
publicly available until fairly recently, the phone company has had the
capability for quite some time.

Do I believe the NSA is intercepting and interrupting individual's phone
Not necessarily.  In fact, I put little stock in Bill English's stuff.
But I think that you could make better points to debunk him than the one
you are using.
--

Anson Kennedy                                                  [e-mail]
Secretary of the Georgia Skeptics (but don't even THINK I speak for them!)

"If you don't watch the violence,   \           "If I had been the Virgin Mary,
you'll never get desensitized to it." \                I would have said 'No.'"
-Bart Simpson                           \  -Margaret "Stevie" Smith (1902-1971)
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From: [e-mail] (PAUL BRETTLE)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aliens on internet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:54:40 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Clinical Research Network, Hope Hospital, Manchester
Lines: 16
Originator: [e-mail]

It wouldn't suprise me if, rather than messing around in spacecraft and all
that, Aliens have already plugged into the Internet via the Deep Space
Network.

It would be a very easy way of interacting with terrestial life, with
little risk of being discovered.

Any of you Alien hackers want to own up now?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Brettle                         [e-mail]
Orthopaedic Clinic
Hope Hospital
Manchester                           [phone]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:56:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 92


    [e-mail] (Alex Lopez-Ortiz) writes:
    According to Unsolved Mysteries, witnesses identify the
    materials as plastics. At the time they didn't know they were
    such, but when the plastic era arrived they recognized some of
    them.

... at least one witness did not say this -- Jesse Marcel,
Intelligence officer at Roswell.  He said 1978 (well into the 'age of
plastics', I think you'll agree) that the material was like nothing
he'd ever seen.  Marcel not only saw the material, he handled large
bunches of it, while piling it into his car (a 1942 Buick, BTW) to
take back to Roswell.

    As I recall, plastics predate WWII (including in generally
available items, such as "barcalite"); plastics were a big part of the
DuPont exposition at the world's fair of 1939, for instance, which
received large play in newspapers, magazines, and newsreels.  They
didn't drop on the public from the sky (if you'll pardon the
expression) sometime after 1947, so postulating a "later plastics era"
just doesn't wash... (a quick check of our local library catalog shows
books on plastics at least as far back as 1933.)


    Furthermore, from the accounts the bodies could have been
    severely charred human carcases. And the "alien spacecrat" an
    experimental aircraft.

... I suggest, then, that you identify what experimental aircraft it
was.  Surely the US Air Force would not keep a failed experimental
aircraft secret for 45 years -- so could you please tell me which one
was it?  Why hasn't it been identified as such in that time?  (For
instance, the Northrop "flying wing" project, including all prototypes
and working versions, are accounted for elsewhere, including the
crashed ones -- so the Roswell crash ain't one of those.)

    There was a military installation nearby, and what better than
    the desert to try new planes.

... except the military installation was not an aircraft test center.
The main test center was in California, which is quite a ways away
from Roswell, the home of a regular Air Force unit (509th Bomb Group--
the only nuclear bombing unit in the USAF at the time.)  (If you think
its not that far, I suggest you try and drive it.)  Contrary to the
the implication of your statement, there is a lot of open "desert"
land in the southwestern US -- there would be no reason to test out
experimental planes in areas of NM when the perfectly good other
testing center existed in CA.

   If you wish to handwave further, I suggest you look into the
history of the postwar aircraft testing programs (look up Muroc Dry
Lake, later named Edwards Air Force Base -- its where the "flying
wings" were developed, the "X" series, etc.)  White Sands Missile
Range was relatively close to the crash site, but as far as I can find
the only missiles being tested at that time were V-2's, and they're
accounted for (the nearest launch attempt to the Roswell crash, for
instance, was July 3d, but never left the pad due to a fuel accident.
There were a total of 47 US V-2 launches, up through 1952, by the way.
After a rocket left the test range in May 1947 (headed for Mexico, in
fact it crashed a half-mile south of Juarez, Mexico), they were all
fitted with self-destruct mechanisms, so they wouldn't leave the test
range; and Roswell is over 100 miles from White Sands; the actual
crash site nearer to Corona than Roswell, and so even further from
White Sands.)

   Further, if the crashed object was an experimental US aircraft, why
collect the pieces and send parts of them to Fort Worth TX, Wright
Field OH, and Los Alamos NM?  Wouldn't the crash be studied in place
(the area could simply be cordoned off) to determine what went wrong,
and then just taken back to wherever it was being worked on?  (If it
was a crashed V-2, wouldn't they just take it back to White Sands?)

   Why, if it was an experimental aircraft, would the military issue
not one but two cover stories (the "Flying Saucer" story, July 8th,
and then the "Balloon" story later the same day)?  Why wouldn't they
just say it was an experimental aircraft, and leave it at that?  (No
details, just "an experimental, classified aircraft crashed" would
have been enough.)  Why all this effort (moving the stuff to various
bases far away, hastily clearing the crash site, the elaborate press
conference, telling the cleanup crew to forget what they had seen and
done, etc.)?  Why would the military (in the person of a Captain
Armstrong) confiscate -- *two years* later -- bits of the craft Bill
Brazel had found after the cleanup?

Charles

PS - sources: "UFO Crash at Roswell", by Randl and Schmitt, "The
Roswell Report", edited by George Eberhart, "Winged Wonders" by E.T.
Wolldridge, "The Wing will Fly" - documentary recently shown on the
Discovery Channel, "The Rocket Pilots" - documentary by NBC News,
recently shown on DC, an episode of (and the book of) "Connections",
by James Burke, recently shown on The Learning Channel.
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ezekiel's spaceship
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:15:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 20


    [e-mail] (Jean Cherbonnier) wrote:

    >I would like to get some information on a chapter in the
    >Bible (Old Testament) where Ezekiel describes what sounds
    >like the arrival of a space ship and...

... try telneting to info.rutgers.edu, our campus-wide information
system.  Once connected, type:

    "goto<cr>"
    "bible<cr>"
    "Eze<cr>"
    "<cr>"

... that will show you the King James version of the book of Ezekiel.

Hope this helps,

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Teemu Lahteenmaki)
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Jules Verne
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 23:25:56 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes:
>On the local radio station newscast about 2-3 days ago there was
>a short 30 second story about the government construction a 2 mile long
>"gun" to propel things to the moon.  Any thoughts?(i.e. shooting down
>objects in the sky as opposed to actually shooting things to the moon)

Well didn't Jules Verne (the writer) invent this back in last century ?
He wrote about huge gun which was used to shoot 'space capsule' to the
moon, well it just swing around it.. So his visions were not so absurd
that people have tought.. Great man.




--
____________________________________________________________
I  Teemu Lahteenmaki - student of mathematical computing   I
I  Intergalactical University of Jyvaskyla, Finland        I
I_ [e-mail] ___________ 25 30'32" East 62 37'59" North _I
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From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens on internet
Summary: Alien Hacking: another view
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:15:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (PAUL BRETTLE) writes:
>It wouldn't suprise me if, rather than messing around in spacecraft and all
>Any of you Alien hackers want to own up now?
>

If it is true that aliens are on the net, why don't
we just finger their accounts, shoot the addresses
over to alt.hackers or alt.cyberpunk and have them
tap their systems.?

Hey, aliens-on-the-net-spying-on-us: turnabout's fair play!

    Jason
    Our Reporter on the Hideous Plain of Leng
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From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:21:01 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 39
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com


Kathy, this doesn't clear anything up. I can say I see little white
kangaroos hoping around me, that doesn't mean I'm sober ;).

What do you see exactly. Plize, no "Well, a kind of light around the head
of people". Try and be constructive. I'm very willing to believe you.
ever considered some simple tests ?(read Randi's books for a simple, conclusive
design. There's a big reward if you can convince him !).
I mean, if I could see "auras", I would definitly go and see doctors and
convince them !!!


> Kathie  ;.)


JM.

JM,

I will try to explain this the best that I can.

The first thing I see is a trace around a person's body.  It is usually about
1 inch around them.  Then I see a wave of energy moving off of the first layer.

You know when it is hot outside, and you can see heat coming off the street.  It
comes in like waves, well that is what the second layer looks like, and sometimes
I can see colors in this wave.  It depends on the person's feelings and how in
tuned to them I am.  Also what kind of back ground is behind them.  The third
layer, and I have only seen the third layer a few times, is when I can see their
spirit guide around them.  The third layer doesn't show up for me all the time.

But there have been a few times when I have seen the third layer.  It is an awesome
sight.

Does this make it any easier for you?

Thanks,

Kathie
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From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 15 Oct 92 23:35:04 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 24
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com

I can't speak for Kathie, but what I see is similar in nature to the
atmospheric disturbances caused by heat. I ususally see it in a 1"-3" form
around the persons body.  I have a little trouble explaining how I can read it.
It is vaugly related to intensity and what it "reminds" me of in my mind.  I
understand that is a bit hard to comprehend, but I know of no words to explain
what I am talking about.

I used to think that I was crazy or something.  Then I realized that what I
"read" from the auras was most often true.  As for proving it to doctors...
I am not quite sure how one could go about doing that.  It would be an
interesting challenge, though.

Later!
C J Rogers


Thanks for the help here C J Rogers.  As I posted in an earlier posting it
is like the heat wave off the street.  Your 1"-3" is right on.

How to prove it???????????  When I can prove it, my dad will believe me.

See ya,

Kathie  ;.)
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From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:47:52 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com

Dear People: Please disregard all of the letters behind my name. My
computer is acting up. I woke up with what I consider to be a profound
thought and that is WE ARE ALL ALIENS. By that I mean that we as a
civilization did not originate or evolve on this particular planet.
John Winston.

Good thought John.  That would explain why some of us are white, and some of
us are brown, and some of us are yellow.  We came from different parts of the
galaxy.

Kathie  ;.)
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From: [e-mail] (Pat Luther)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens on internet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 03:31:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Percy's mach, Portland, OR
Lines: 6

[e-mail] (PAUL BRETTLE) writes:


>Any of you Alien hackers want to own up now?

No.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12178 alt.alien.visitors:10232
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Arbaline)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Happy happy joy joy
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Washington
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 06:32:30 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Fellow Travellers: The world looks a little better today. Maybe
>we should think like the quote that was in the hippy song that someone
>can probubly remember exactly;

Are you thinking of the "Age of Aquarius" one? Sorry I wasn't able to
OOBE with you guys last night; had other metaphysical commitments.

>Undoubtedly as we look back on this time
>a 100,000 years from now we will realize that things have been going
>on just as they were meant to be.
>John Winston.

100K years from now? Try 25 at most! You say yourself that we are in
for one fun ride. Although you raise a very good point! God is great
and the entire Universe proceeds under the Will and Plan of That!
(even if it doesn't seem like that) Karma acts as Universal Law and
all of us create our own reality.  Have you decided on your reality
yet? Energy follows thought. We are all Godlings. We are all One!

"Give me a little peace."
"A little? Why so modest? How about eternal peace; now there's a thought!"
-Peter O'Toule and Katharine Hepburn in "The Lion in Winter"

- Walter
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steven Vere)
Subject: Anti-Gravity Flying Saucer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 07:09:07 GMT
Lines: 96

   I saw the following in sci.research and thought people here might
be interested too.
_____________________________________________________________________
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.research
Subject: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Oct 92 18:37:12 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire
Lines: 72



                         Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Spacecraft
                         and ZERO/REDUCED-Gravity Chamber

               NASA should build an experimental spacecraft based on
          U.S. Patent #3,626,605 [at least $1.00 per complete copy from
          U.S. Patent Office, 2021 Jefferson Davis Hwy., Arlington, VA
          22202; correct 7-digit patent number required.  Or try getting
          it via your local public or university library's inter-library
          loan dept..], titled "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR GENERATING A
          SECONDARY GRAVITATIONAL FORCE FIELD", awarded to Inventor
          Henry W. Wallace on Dec. 14, 1971.

               In the patent, Figs. 7A and 7B are basically side views
          of a gravity-NEUTRALIZING FLYING SAUCER, or, if anchored to
          the ground, a ZERO-GRAVITY CHAMBER [which could have MANY
          possible GROUND-level applications for science, medicine,
          manufacturing, etc.].  Each oval diagram shows a motor
          spinning a central disc at a very high speed, about 28,000
          RPM, and also rotating two other discs sandwiched around the
          first disc, via gears, at a much slower speed, perhaps 2,800
          RPM, in the opposite direction.  The two outer discs have
          extensions [counter-balanced via off-center axis] that, as
          they rotate, alternately make contact with two wide
          extensions from opposite walls of the spacecraft.  The
          central disc should have shallow spiral-shaped grooves on
          both sides for air-bearings, to allow the needed very close
          contact with the two outer discs.

               I should clarify that each of the two outer discs has
          ONLY ONE [counter-balanced] extension, each one pointed
          opposite (180 degrees) the extension of the other disc.

               VERY CLOSE CONTACT must be made as the disc extensions
          slide past the wall extensions in order to conduct the
          "Kinemassic" Energy (term coined by the Inventor) from the
          discs to the walls in an ALTERNATING CIRCULATION.

               The most important factor making it work is that the
          discs, extensions, and outer walls of the spacecraft MUST be
          made of any material(s) in which a very large majority of the
          atoms are of isotopes having "half integral atomic spin",
          such as copper (3/2).  All other parts, etc., should have a
          minority of such atoms.  [See the appropriate column of the
          table of isotopes in the latest edition of "The Handbook of
          Chemistry and Physics."]

               Experimenters should use one motor to spin the center
          disc, and a 2ND SEPARATE motor to rotate the two outer discs,
          so their relative speeds can be varied to establish the
          needed conditions for PROPULSION of the spacecraft via
          "NEGATIVE WEIGHT" (with the spacecraft's "Kinemassic" field
          PUSHING AGAINST the earth's gravitational field, etc.).


               If we have to put up a space station, establish Moon
          bases, go to Mars, rendezvous with comets, etc., WHY DO IT
          THE HARD WAY?!

               Your favorite university or research company could make
          a big name for itself by making a small model of this work.


               UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
          IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.


                                        Robert E. McElwaine
                                        B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC





--
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  Steven Vere                                       [e-mail]
  Boulder Creek, California                [e-mail]
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_____________________________________________________________________
Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:32586 alt.alien.visitors:10234 sci.astro:21959
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!gatech!ncar!csn!teal.csn.org!jrblack
From: [e-mail] (Roger Black)
Subject: Re: Menzel and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: ufo
Sender: [e-mail] (news)
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
References: <gdavis.719083919@griffin> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 08:47:05 GMT
Lines: 186

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert
Sheaffer) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Roger Black) writes:
>
>> Menzel should be taken with a very large dose of salt.  A number of the
>> people who dealt with him in the early years of ufology (such as E.J.
>> Ruppelt, the head of Project Blue Book from 1951-53, and J. Allen
>> Hynek, the science adviser to Blue Book for many years) apparently
>> considered Menzel to be arrogant, devious, and dishonest.  Many of his
>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> "scientific" explanations of UFO sightings were so outlandish that even
>> people who were sympathetic to his conclusions were embarrassed by his
>> arguments.  People on both sides of the UFO controversy had a great
>> deal of difficulty understanding why such an intelligent and capable
>> scientist was so determined to make an ass of himself in public when it
>> came to UFOs.
>
> This is nothing short of slander

It is slander only if it is false.  Truth is always a sufficient defense.

> against a respected astronomer

The respect of one's peers is no guarantee of infallibility or even
integrity, especially outside one's field of expertise.  Linus Pauling
won a Nobel Prize for chemistry, but an awful lot of skeptics question
both his competence and his integrity in other areas.

> whose
> contributions to the science of astronomy far outweigh any those of any
> pro-UFOlogist in the field.

Probably true, but irrelevant.  Menzel's contributions to astronomy,
which were immense, prove nothing about the validity of his statements
on UFOs, which have very little to do with astronomy.

> I agree that Menzel was sometimes arrogant
> (many distinguished, elderly scientists sometimes get that way).

Distinguished, certainly.  Elderly?  Hardly.  Born in 1901, he was only
a hair over 50 when he began debunking UFOs.  Middle aged, perhaps, but
not elderly.

> I further agree that sometimes he was careless (who isn't?).

Menzel's errors of fact and logic regarding UFOs go far beyond
carelessness.  That's what is so puzzling.  Why did someone who was so
masterful in so many other areas (atmospherics, communications, and
cryptanalysis as well as astronomy) suddenly become so incredibly
sloppy and irrational when it came to UFOs?  The only reasonable
answers that have been suggested are fanaticism and duplicity.  Care to
choose one?

> But
> to call him "devious and dishonest" is a reprehensible and groundless
> insult to the memory of an oustanding scientist

He may well have been a paragon of virtue in every other area of his
life, but when it came to UFOs he seems to have been a real skunk.
Those who worked with Menzel in Project Blue Book and related programs
considered him devious because, among other things, he used false
pretenses in an attempt to obtain files which he had been properly
denied access to.  He was considered dishonest because he twisted facts
and tortured the laws of physics to justify "explanations" which a
scientist of his competence and experience _had_ to know were
untenable.  He even went so far as to propound bizarre and exotic
theories for Blue Book cases which the Air Force had already given
satisfactory and prosaic explanations for.  Why?

> who taught and did research for many years at Harvard University.

I fail to see how spending "many years at Harvard" is any guarantee of
either scientific competence or moral integrity.  Are there really no
liars or fools at Harvard?

>> Stanton Friedman may have found the answer to that question after
>> Menzel's death, when he obtained access to Menzel's personal papers and
>> discovered that Menzel led a double life:  Academic scientist by day,
>> intelligence agent by night.  Over the years he apparently worked for
>> both the CIA and the NSA, as well as a number of military agencies and
>> industrial concerns, and he held a Top Secret Ultra clearance.  Given
>> the history of the intelligence community's systematic subversion of
>> UFO organizations and their repeated efforts to spread confusion and
>> disinformation on the subject, Menzel's ties to that community are more
>> than a little suspicious.

> Whoever has more confidence in Friedman, who calls himself the "flying
> saucer physicist" and has been a full-time UFO promoter for many
> years, than in Dr. Menzel, is seriously deluded.

This is not a question of "confidence", but of facts.  As far as I
know, Friedman's evidence for Menzel's "secret life" has not even been
challenged, much less refuted.

> Friedman has
> been promoting many UFO hoaxes over the years, including the ridiculous
> "Gulf Breeze UFO photos" and the "MJ-12 papers".

Careful.  Friedman has indeed been pushing the MJ-12 documents, which
he seems to believe are genuine.  I think he is mistaken, but I have no
grounds for doubting his sincerity.  Do you?  If so, please put your
proof on the table.  If not, you'd better choose your words a bit more
carefully.  You have come perilously close to accusing Friedman of
_knowingly_ purveying falsehoods.  That's a very serious charge.

> If we are comparing
> credibility and character, I would rate that of a respected scientist
> like Menzel over that of a slick UFO huckster like Friedman any day.

Again, I am not interested in "comparing character" but in establishing
facts.

However, if you want to talk about slander (as you did in your opening
statement), here we have a fine example of it.  I suspect calling a
fellow scientist a "slick UFO huckster" is not only slander, but
slander "per se" in that it impugns your opponent's competence or
fitness for his chosen profession.  That means Friedman wouldn't have
to show malice or actual damages if he chose to sue you for slander,
but only that you said it--unless, of course, you have proof of your
charges.  If so, let's hear it.  If not, perhaps you should consider
taking it back.

> Friedman and pals would like us to forget that, during World War II,
> virtually EVERY scientist in the U.S. became involved in military
> research, most of which was highly classified. Even the late Dr. J.
> Allen Hynek, a saint to those in the UFO movement, did classified
> research on military projects during World War II. I heard him say
> this myself. Even Asimov and Heinlein did secret military research,
> and had high clearances; does this make them suspect?

The cases are not at all comparable.  Yes, lots of people did
classified work during the war.  But how many of them _never_ talked
about it for the rest of their lives?  Did Asimov or Heinlein keep
silent to their dying day?  Or all of the other myriads of erstwhile
spooks and technocrats?  Hardly.  By the time of Menzel's death,
everybody and his brother were writing books about the good old days:
inventing the Bomb and the programmable computer, breaking the Japanese
and German codes, deceiving the Axis about the Normandy invasion,
smuggling Nazis out of Europe so they could take us to the moon.  But
not Menzel.  Menzel never told his friends and colleagues about his
secret activities; apparently he never even told his wife.  Whatever he
was up to, he took it to the grave with him.

As for Hynek, he was apparently involved in secret military activities
as late as 1973, without ever telling even his closest friends what he
was up to.  And, yes, I _do_ find that suspicious.  Don't you?

>> In any case, for the most part his activities in these areas were kept
>> secret from the public, his academic and scientific colleagues, his
>> closest friends, and even his family.  But they do seem to have been
>> known to the author(s) of the so-called "MJ-12" UFO documents, who put
>> Menzel's name on an otherwise plausible list of government officials in
>> the alleged UFO control group.  This is, in fact, one of the strongest
>> arguments that the MJ-12 documents, while almost certainly bogus,
>> originated from somewhere within the bowels of the U.S. intelligence
>> community instead of some lone hoaxer's basement.
>
> The "MJ-12 papers" are garbage.

Do you actually read what other people write, or do you just free
associate?  Like I said:  "the MJ-12 documents [are] almost certainly
bogus."  No argument there.  The question is, whose garbage are they?
Richard Bissell of the CIA said that in terms of format and style they
were indistinguishable from the real thing.  Pretty good for an amateur
forger, don't you think?  Richard Doty of AFOSI said he thought they
originated from within the Defense Intelligence Agency.  Now why would
a counterintelligence agent say such a thing unless either (1) he
genuinely thought it was true, or (2) he was trying to deflect
attention from the real source of the hoax, which might be a bit closer
to home?  Either way, the finger points to the intelligence community,
not some rogue private citizen.

> They were confabulated by a hoaxer
> using a photocopied signature of Harry Truman taken from a real
> letter in the Truman library.

Probable, but not yet certain.  Friedman has some cogent arguments to
the contrary.  And there's a hell of a lot more to MJ-12 than a forged
signature.  Yes, MJ-12 is a hoax--but a very sophisticated and
carefully crafted hoax nonetheless.  What I want to know is, who did
it, and why?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 James Roger Black                                     [e-mail]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!a4445
From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: 2-mile long gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 08:55:45 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 24

>frost... writes:
>Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
(stuff deleted)
>  You are both close. As an aside before my explanation the electromagnetic
>railgun is already down to the size that would fit onto the bed of a medium
>size truck. There are at least two companies here in the states that are
work-
>ing on reducing it down further so that it can be a viable tank-mounted
weapon
>with the premise that it would not have to fire heavy explosive or kinetic
>energy projectiles to do damage.
>  The railgun is an ideal weapon for space because to work effectively it
>really
>needs a vacuum within the 'barrel' section. In this manner when the
capacitive
>
(More stuff deleted)                                                Jim
How depressing.  I guess I was being idealistic to think that use for this
thing would not be for weapons and warfare first.  I should know humans by
now.  By the way, is it too late to become an alien.  I hate being related to
o so many people.  Colleen
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!batcomputer!genie!olivea!gossip.pyramid.com!decwrl!deccrl!news.crl.dec.com!dbased.nuo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!ryn.mro4.dec.com!est.enet.dec.com!randolph
From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Mars Observer and "the face"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:01:33 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 99


Below is a repost of a sci.astro article. Executive summary: Yes, NASA will
attempt to photograph the Cydonia "artifacts" when the Mars Observer passes
over them. Because of the peculiarities of the craft's orbit, this will only
happen once or twice per Martian year.   -Tom R.

Article: 27339
From: [e-mail] (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.astro
Subject: Plans to acquire Face images (was Re: Mars Observer and the "Face")
Date: 13 Oct 92 23:05:33 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Tom Randolph) writes:

> Can someone at NASA post NASA's thoughts one way or another regarding the
> Mars Observer and the Martian "face"?  [...]
> Does NASA even have an opinion on this? Is any hi-res coverage planned? There
> are all kinds of rumors flying, including "the hi-res camera isn't easily
> pointable, so no hi-res coverage is planned"... how about clarification?

I passed on this request to a friend at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
and he provided this summary of what David D. Evans, Mars Observer
Project Manager at JPL, was saying to people who were writing to him
about Cydonia before the launch.  (JPL manages the spacecraft under
contract to NASA, so this is about as authoritative as you can
possibly get.)  I received permission to post this.

[begin quote from JPL]

The Mars Observer Project at JPL is certainly aware of the great
interest in the Cydonia region.  The project's staff intend to do
their best to be responsive to requests for high-resolution
photographic coverage of the region.

They unfortunately cannot absolutely guarantee, however, that they
will obtain the requested Cydonia region coverage, although they
are optimistic that they can do so.  The reasons have nothing to do
with politics, but rather with the nature of the Mars Observer
mission, of the camera, and of Mars itself.

The Mars Observer spacecraft will be in an orbit that will take it
over each part of the planet only once in each Martian year.  In
order to achieve the highest possible resolution, the Mars Observer
Camera was designed with a very small field of view (only about 3
km (1.8 mi) wide).  It physically cannot be pointed in any
direction except straight down.  Thus, we will have, at best, one
or maybe two opportunities to photograph any 3 km square piece of
Mars.  In addition, given the uncertainty in the position of each
orbit and the timing of the spacecraft within each orbit (resulting
from atmospheric drag because the spacecraft is so low), mission
controllers will not be able to predict precisely when Mars
Observer will fly over a specific location on Mars.  Finally, even
if they are able to predict when the appropriate images should be
taken, Mars may not cooperate -- clouds, fogs, hazes, and dust
storms frequently obscure the surface.

Thus, whereas the project team fully expects to acquire images of
the Cydonia region, they cannot be absolutely certain that they
will acquire high-resolution images of any particular small feature.

There has also been some confusion about when these photos will be
released to the general public.  We expect to release two kinds of
photo products.  First of all, we will release selected prints of
interesting features on Mars to the news media, typically within a
week or two after acquisition.  Cydonia area photos fall into this
category.  Once the photos are released, they will be made available
for purchase by the general public through a local contractor.

The second set of data, comprising an immense data set of all photo
products of Mars, will be released in digital form, in several
increments, on CD-ROM diskettes within about six months from the
time these products are acquired.  This is to allow sufficient time
for computer processing for time tagging, for orbital position
determination, etc., and for the project science team analysis and
correlation with data from other instruments.  This digital data
set, which will be available from the National Space Science Data
Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, can be accessed by anyone with a
commercially available CD-ROM reader attached to their personal
computer.

[end quote from JPL; back to quoting Tom Randolph again]

> This is a hot topic of late over in
> alt.alien.visitors. It would probably be a good idea to head off the
> government conspiracy theories early and avoid the rush.

Go ahead and re-post if you like, Tom.  No way am I gonna get
involved.  Besides, those characters don't believe anybody who posts
from a government laboratory anyway. (-:

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     [e-mail]
   -   -       Internet:  [e-mail]
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12180 alt.alien.visitors:10237 sci.skeptic:32587
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!utcsri!torn!cunews!revcan!micor!uuisis!bbs
From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 02:55:46 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 26

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear Fellow Travellers: The world looks a little better today. Maybe
> we should think like the quote that was in the hippy song that someone
> can probubly remember exactly; Undoubtedly as we look back on this time
> a 100,000 years from now we will realize that things have been going
> on just as they were meant to be.
> John Winston.

"Whether or not it is apparent to you, undoubtedly the universe is
unfolding as it should."

-Pierre Trudeau (Prime Minister of Canada, 1968-1984)

Or maybe you're thinking of "Amazing Grace"?

"When we've been here 10,000 years,
Bright shining as the sun,
There's no less cause to sing God's praise,
As when we first began."

I dare not quote more because I would *certainly* be accused of
Christian proselytising.

=doug

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12182 alt.alien.visitors:10238
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 06:26:11 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Folk: The saying that I was saying did have something to do with
the song Age of Aquarius. It seems that wednesday OOBE train didn't
get off the ground very well. Maybe I forgot to pay the electric bill.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12183 alt.alien.visitors:10239
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 06:30:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Space People Watchers:  Sometimes I wish this information was
a little more serious but then I might not still be allowed to talk
about all of this if people took me serious. I hope to post some
more later when I get some time.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12184 alt.alien.visitors:10240 alt.religion.kibology:4185
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 06:32:45 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Big Foot Lovers: Hang on in there folks. We're moving on up to
the big time. I'll post some more when I get some time.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ezekiel's spaceship
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 06:37:07 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

One of these days maybe I'll get the time to tell about meeting the
of the present incarnation of the prophet E.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kal)
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Sender: [e-mail] (Marchi, Khaled K.)
Nntp-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu
Organization: University of Houston
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:19:00 GMT
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>
>Kathy, this doesn't clear anything up. I can say I see little white
>kangaroos hoping around me, that doesn't mean I'm sober ;).
>
>What do you see exactly. Plize, no "Well, a kind of light around the head
>of people". Try and be constructive. I'm very willing to believe you.
>ever considered some simple tests ?(read Randi's books for a simple, conclusive
>design. There's a big reward if you can convince him !).
>I mean, if I could see "auras", I would definitly go and see doctors and
>convince them !!!
>
>
>> Kathie  ;.)
>
>
>JM.
>
>JM,
>
>I will try to explain this the best that I can.
>(Aura discription deleted for brevity)
>Thanks,
>
>Kathie
The test JM mentioned is very straightforward. A opaque partition is set up.
The partition is just high enough so that it hides the person standing behind
it but lets their aura show over the top. A group of people are broght in to
stand behind the partition. All that you have to do is tell how many people
there are and where they are standing (You don't get to see them come in, and
they must maintain complete silence). If you do better than random chance,
then you've proved your ability.
This has been preformed many times on people who say that they see auras.
Not a single one has passed, yet. There is a large reward for the person
who can pass (ten thousand dollars? I forget.) I urge you to try this, if
you really think you can see the auras. This must be done under controlled
conditions with an impartial observer(s) present, of course.
Be forewarned, though. I have seen (a tape of) a woman breaking down in tears
when she miserably failed the test. she really believed that she could see
the auras, but she utterly failed to pinpoint where people stood behind the
partition. It was sad to witness.

Kal    [e-mail]               My opinions are almost, but not quite,
                                       entirely unlike those of my employer.




Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!asm332
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:36:21 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 84

Paragraphs are quoted from several different authors whose names got lost
during the editing process; but you should recognise anything that's
yours.


.....
[On the subject of abductions]
> Yeh, well JW has about 30 years on you...

So why doesn't he give us the benefit of his experience instead of posting
the material he does at the moment ?



.....
> How can you possibly tell the difference between
> real talk of alien visitors and wild tales of entertainment?

Easy.  Try it for yourself.  Sort the wheat from the chaff in these
recently-discussed topics:

Hot-Tub Breathing;
Telepathic Communication with Bigfoot;
Baby Talk;
Dolphin Talk;
Breakdancing Rocks;
Ruins of 30000yr old City;
The Portal;
Astral Train;
Ostrich People;
Information on John Lear; and
Information on Dr Mack's work with abductees.

Now which two topics on this list *are* appropriate to a.a.v.?

This list is by no means exhaustive but I've kept the same signal to noise
ratio as presently exists in a.a.v.


.....
>Good. I guess we won't be seing your posts is the new group. I am already
>getting a large response of people that are saying "AYE!". So basically,
>we don't need you unless you are willing. Just don't subscribe to the
>group when it comes.


Why not turn alt.alien.visitors into a moderated group instead of creating
a new one ?

.....
>Chris has a good idea, but is it workable?  Perhaps we could do something like
>rec.arts.tv does, and ask folks to put abbreviations in their header lines
>which would let us know what the general topic is.  How about this:

>NA  =  New Age stuff

Why?  A group already exists for discussion of this topic: talk.religion.newage


>UFO =  Pertaining to UFO sightings and phenomena
>CE3 =  Close Encounters... alien contact
>INV =  Paranoid rantings about alien invasions
>VON =  VonDaniken-oid stuff like Atlantis/Mu/Spacemen
>GRAY = Stuff about Grays
>SCI  = Scientific (preferably not pseudo) findings on UFO related issues
>ABD  = Abduction information
>HOT  = Someone flaming someone else
>HA   = Jokes & silliness
>OP   = Opinions

>I'm sure there are others we could use, but these are a few basic ones.  How
>do you all feel about trying something like this?  It would help in using
>killfiles.

A good idea, but the problem is with people posting "off subject" material
like the first 9 items on my list above.


It looks like feelings are running high on the subject of the abuse
of alt.alien.visitors.
Should a.a.v. become moderated ?   Perhaps if we ask Mr. Clavelli nicely
he'll let us use his voting booth again....

-s.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!news.Brown.EDU!noc.near.net!hri.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu!durocher
From: [e-mail] (Phil)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Belgium UFO observation - 7 Apr 1990
Summary: looking for a copy of image file from Ecole militaire royal
Keywords: sighting belgium image processing Liege
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:00:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Lines: 29
Nntp-Posting-Host: dali.mcrcim.mcgill.edu

Yesterday's tv show "le Point" in Montreal,QC,Canada showed a good review
of some major past events supporting the existence of extra-terrestrial
visits to our world.

One part of the show dealt with the recent (90's) Belgium interest in the
phenomenon, due to a wave of observations that brought together the civilian
organization SOBEPS and the belgium air force.

On April 7th, 1990 nearby Liege, Belgium, a color slide of a ufo was taken
that was later on analysed by the "Ecole militaire royale" under the
supervision of prof Marc Acheroy.

The slide, after having been digitalized, was image processed to render new
information, one of importance being the shape of the object through blue
color enhancement.

I would like to know if the data file of this famous belgium UFO picture is
available, if anyone knows the internet address of either the prof  or the
military college I mention.

I would like to use that picture in an image processing course here, merging
several interests into one endeanvour.

--
---
Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
                                McGill University, Montreal
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!derekg
From: [e-mail] (gundersen derek h)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:47:04 GMT
Lines: 560

[e-mail] (DON KAUFFMAN) writes:

     [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>Subject: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
nPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology
e [e-mail]    2  >Which 3D Mac animation is superior?
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology







f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology


Q
nn












A
f Yury German      21  >>steregram "drugs"?
g Diego Montefusco 17  >>>
h Patrick Jordan   24  >>>
i Timothy Wilson  596  beginner 3D code release 1.0
j \comp\mark       23  >>Stereo Slide Projector
k Simon Kravis     58  >Recommendations for 3d station?
l James Gardiner   36  >>
m JonPaul Leduc    29  >
n SpIke           116  >>>
o ted foss         10  POV source anyone?
p nedelman@spacm1  28  >
q syawanar@cc      19  >
r [e-mail]       1  another test.
s Timothy Wilson   11  To an Andrew that left me<>about the PD turboC lib for ST

-- 12:36 -- SELECT -- help:? -----Top 48%-----
Newsgroup: alt.3d                              Articles: 38 of 152647/1711 NEW

a R. Hughes         8  Help on 3d terrain mapping
b [e-mail]     9  >
c pc225@           62  >>>easy dubbing question (copy protection problem)
d Marcos Novak      1  ANNOUNCING: New Graduate <>in Architecture+Art+Technology


:q


A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
A
A
A
A
A
A
A

>    Have you tried decaf?

>>Its is boldly appearant to me that alt.alien.visitors needs to split

>    It is boldly apparent to me that you need to pick up a
>    dictionary.

>>Lets leave these bozos to their wild tales of entertainment and go

>    How can you possibly tell the difference between
>    real talk of alien visitors and wild tales of entertainment?

>    I think you'll find that the alt.alien.visitor reader
>    is looking for both, and that if you start a new group,
>    the same "bozos" will migrate there as well.

>>somewhere where we can have more "MEAT" to feed on. I haven't the

>    Am I reading this correctly?  You want to start a group
>    where you can talk about eating alien visitors?

>>faintest idea how to create a group and I don't know what we should
>>name it. I am sure some interested party would be willing to help.
>>Anyway, I will write a FAQ for it (with the help of others, I am
>>sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
>>some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff". All
>>in favor...
>>

>    NAY!!!
>    Is there any way that we can block this nonsense?
>    A peaceful resistance?

>>Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
>>their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
>>planet.

>    You'll only eat them if they're not friendly?
>    Do you eat cows?  Has any cow ever been particularly
>    unfriendly to you?  Why do you want to eat these aliens?
>    Have you heard something about their meat being especially
>    tasty?  If so, what kind of meat here on earth is comparable?

>    Oh, I see.  You don't want to eat them, just to blow them.

>>This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.

>    Huh?  Is this supposed to be funny?

>    Do you know Gary?
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:20:23 GMT
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Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations) writes:


>The first thing I see is a trace around a person's body.  It is usually about
>1 inch around them.  Then I see a wave of energy moving off of the first layer.



Is it uniform around the body ? can you see it better under certain lighting conditions ?
Can you see it at night ? Can you see through the aura ?
Do you always see it, or do you trigger your "vision" at will ?

>The third
>layer, and I have only seen the third layer a few times, is when I can see their
>spirit guide around them.  The third layer doesn't show up for me all the time.


Spirit guide ? definition please ? How do you know what it is ???


You say the aura depends on the person feelings. How do you know
that ? Can you "guess" a correspondance between the characteristics
of the aura and the feelings/health/whatever of the person ?
Did you try to guess accuratly the mood of someone based on your
observation ?


Lots of questions, hope you answer them all.



JM.
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Portable Ufo detector, is it out there?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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Date: 16 Oct 92 17:28:55 GMT
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[e-mail] (Al Jagnow) writes:

[in response to a request for a - yuk, yuk - "UFO detector"

>>
>> --
>> [e-mail]
>If I remember correctly, UFO's produce magnetic disturbances - simply hang a
>magnet from a bare piece of copper wire. Place a loop of bare copper wire
>around, but not touching the wire from which the magnet is hanging - as close
>to the magnet as possible. Connect the two wires in series with a battery and
>an electric bell or buzzer. When the magnet moves, the wires will touch,
>completing the circuit and sounding an alarm. Building the magnet assembly
>inside a wood or plastic box will prevent the wind from causing false alarms.
>The longer the pendulum and the stronger the magnet, the more sensitive the
>alarm. Needless to say, the support for the pendulum must be made of wood or
>plastic. Try not to use any magnetic materials in the construction of the
>detector.

>If the magnet were massive enough, the wire flexible enough, and the contact
>loop small enough, this might also serve as an earthquake detector.

>I suppose you could do something with a Hall Effect device.....  It would be
>more elegant, but probably not any more effective :-)

    Anything that you put up that detects magnetic fields will eventually
drive the user nuts!

    Damn near EVERYTHING that we use in the way of radios or appliances or
automotive electrical systems, etc., generates magnetic fields.  Anything
that you make sensitive enough will also pick up these items.

    I can see it now - "turn off that damn UFO detector, you sister is
using her hair dryer again!"

    If the occupants of extraterrestrial vehicles can make their
vehicles go at warp-whatever, NOT appear on radar scopes and interfere
with our electrical systems (all of which have been reported), I think
you'd better start looking for something more useful than magnetic
effects detectors.

Duane
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 19:37:54 GMT
Lines: 84

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Sean Eaton) writes:
[...]
|> Easy.  Try it for yourself.  Sort the wheat from the chaff in these
|> recently-discussed topics:
|>
|> Hot-Tub Breathing;
|> Telepathic Communication with Bigfoot;
|> Baby Talk;
|> Dolphin Talk;
|> Breakdancing Rocks;
|> Ruins of 30000yr old City;
|> The Portal;
|> Astral Train;
|> Ostrich People;
|> Information on John Lear; and
|> Information on Dr Mack's work with abductees.
|>
|> Now which two topics on this list *are* appropriate to a.a.v.?


I think most of them are.

Alt.alien.visitors wasn't created with scientific research in mind. It
was created to discuss the aliens that are visiting the earth. You know...
space brothers, pleidians, etc...

I may be wrong here, but the name itself *does* pre-judge the phenomenon. When
I started reading a.a.v there were already ~650 articles expired. Has anyone
been reading since the beginning so they can actually remember why the
group was formed? In any event, it is currently used by 2 distinct types
of people, new agers and researchers. The new agers need a place to
discuss the aliens that are so affecting their spiritual lives and the
researcher need a place to discuss UFOs rationally and exchange
information (I'm aware that I'm over-generalizing here.)

All in all, we seem to be getting along pretty good, but a group split
would ease up on the flaming quite a bit. Personally, I would read both.


[...]
|> Why not turn alt.alien.visitors into a moderated group instead of creating
|> a new one ?


And just tell half of a.a.v readers/posters to <euphemism alert> "go away"?

Nobody will ever be able to change the character of alt.alien.visitors. Even
if you somehow succeeded (a "rationalist" coup?), how would you (or any
moderator) decide what was wheat and what was chaff? I like to keep my mind
open and explore all the possibilities; like it or not UFOs are forever
connected with new age ideas either by design or by analogy. Personally I
don't like it, but I try.


[...]

|> It looks like feelings are running high on the subject of the abuse
|> of alt.alien.visitors.
|> Should a.a.v. become moderated ?   Perhaps if we ask Mr. Clavelli nicely
|> he'll let us use his voting booth again....
|>


As I said before, I don't think the off subject articles are "abuse"
of alt.alien.visitors; nor are they necessarily off subject.

I still think a new group would better solve the problem.
Alt.ufo.research would provide the group the "serious" UFO people
wanted and the rest could enjoy the "anything goes" atmosphere of
alt.alien.visitors without being constantly abused.

Besides... I would be willing to bet that a high percentage of the
alt.alien.visitors readers do so *only* for a good laugh and would vote
against anything that would take their fun away. They won't even
be reading this posting.


|> -s.

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Subject: Re: Anti-Gravity Flying Saucer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:29:55 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steven Vere) writes:
>   I saw the following in sci.research and thought people here might
>be interested too.
>_____________________________________________________________________

[ a lot of phoney drivel rerouted to /dev/null...]

>                                        Robert E. McElwaine
>                                        B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Steve -

Beware.  You've forwarded junk from one of the most extreme examples of
net.whacko.off.my.rocker.make.gary.look.sane posters...

BTW, no one has, to my knowledge, ever been able to verify that Bobbie has
ever even _attended_ college, let alone graduated.


kbq

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
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From: [e-mail] (Corrina Madrid)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: regarding aliens are from hell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 21:12:42 GMT
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Nntp-Posting-Host: tigris


I too have heard the same thing.  In a way it makes sense to me.
I will not go into my explanation why it makes sense, but it does.
hmmm anyone else...
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From: [e-mail] (Stephen Spackman)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Oct 92 10:35:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]><1992Sep25.175939.15686@tellab5
    .tellabs.com> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet news system)
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Sat, 10 Oct 92 06: 38:49 PDT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|Dear People: Please disregard all of the letters behind my name. My
|computer is acting up. I woke up with what I consider to be a profound
|thought and that is WE ARE ALL ALIENS. By that I mean that we as a
|civilization did not originate or evolve on this particular planet.
|John Winston.

Personally, I did not originate or evolve on ANY particular planet. I'm
not sure if this makes me an alien or not.

stephen
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (James H. Kiley)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:40:07 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Dear Big Foot Lovers: Hang on in there folks. We're moving on up to
|> the big time. I'll post some more when I get some time.
|> John Winston.


    I'd like to point out to all of you that Bigfoot isn't a spaceman, he's
from Davenport, Iowa.  He's currently in my garage, reading Nietzche.

    Jimbo
    considering changing it to Jibo, so I can be cool.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: Portable Ufo detector, is it out there?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To:  alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
[...]
|>     Anything that you put up that detects magnetic fields will eventually
|> drive the user nuts!
|>
|>     Damn near EVERYTHING that we use in the way of radios or appliances or
|> automotive electrical systems, etc., generates magnetic fields.  Anything
|> that you make sensitive enough will also pick up these items.
|>
|>     I can see it now - "turn off that damn UFO detector, you sister is
|> using her hair dryer again!"
|>
|>     If the occupants of extraterrestrial vehicles can make their
|> vehicles go at warp-whatever, NOT appear on radar scopes and interfere
|> with our electrical systems (all of which have been reported), I think
|> you'd better start looking for something more useful than magnetic
|> effects detectors.
|>
|> Duane


Why don't you design and build a gravity [wave] detector.

If you could find any response that wasn't backed up by seismic
readings then you got yourself a small meandering black hole
or a UFO.

Of course, I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.



Leonard

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer and "the face"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
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Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 00:06:38 GMT
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Tom Randolph [writes]

> This is a hot topic of late over in
> alt.alien.visitors. It would probably be a good idea to head off the
> government conspiracy theories early and avoid the rush.

Bill Higgins [writes]

>Go ahead and re-post if you like, Tom.  No way am I gonna get
>involved.  Besides, those characters don't believe anybody who posts
>from a government laboratory anyway. (-:


Why should we? The truth has yet to be told. :-(

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 17:38:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 26

Subject: Too Tall Salley.
  One of the readers of this Net is thinking about going to Africa again and
while he's over there he may take a look at the  Ostrich People.  I was
thinking that while he was over there he might as well look up a young lady
of king size proportions.
  Towering teen, Mildred Mobango drives all the men in her native village wild
with lust and desire because the's a 10-foot-4 inch tall beauty who isn't
done growing yet.
  She sometimes wishes she wasn't so tall and she could be like everybody
else. Doctors say she is the world tallest person.
  Tallness is considered a great sign of beauty and power in some African
societies. Tribesmen near Mildred's home in Simbabwe have bejun worshipping
her as a goddess.
  Mildred is worshipped as a messenger from heaven because nobody has ever
seen anyone like her before according to Dr. George Brichell, who brought
the tremendous teen to the world's attention.
  Brickell, a native of England, first met Mildred when she came to his clinic
for immunization shots as an 11 year old.  She was 9foot-4 at the time.
  They think she may get to be 15 feet tall by the time she is 16 years old.
She is also probubly the strongest girl in the world. She is now 13 years
old. I have seen a picture of her and she looks like a normal sized person
except she is bigger than most people.  She is a black person.
  It might be good to contact the Los Angeles Laker basketball team and see if
they are interested.
Source of information: Sun August 7, 1990 page 2
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 92 01:35:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Chris has a good idea, but is it workable?  Perhaps we could do something like
>rec.arts.tv does, and ask folks to put abbreviations in their header lines
>which would let us know what the general topic is.  How about this:
>[...list of abbreviations deleted...]

Wouldn't work.  There is no way to get the posters of the "unwanted" material
to use the abbreviations.  In fact, they'd probably be more likely to avoid
the abbreviations, change subject lines often etc, simply to avoid people's
kill files so they are always there.

The algorithm for dealing with alt.alien.visitors is: If you come across a
strange posting, say to yourself "Yeah, right!  Sure!  You expect me to believe
that?"  and press 'n'.  We started to ignore Gary Stollman a couple of months
back and he disappeared (the person behind it was probably getting bored too).
Then someone says, "Hey, where's Gary?" and he's back, crazier and less
believable than ever.  Just ignore them and they'll go away.  When you react
to them, they keep posting.  They only post to get the reaction.  Keep in
mind that many of them (GS, JW, etc) may just be pranksters posting garbage
to see if we take it seriously, and then laughing their heads off at us.

In real life, when a book has been labelled as controversial, or has been
banned, etc, it sells millions of copies.  If it doesn't draw any attention
at all, it disappears into the quagmire from which it came.  The same applies
here.

This is probably a topic for the FAQ.

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: ET Contact - The Meaning and the Message - REPORT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 03:05:11 GMT
Lines: 249



ET Contact - The Meaning and the Message.



The symposium was hosted by the First Sunday contactee group
members, through the Society for the Advancement of
Civilization, at the UC Berkeley physical sciences building on
Sat., Oct. 10, 1992.



The conference started out with a town meeting, with the mock
mayor role going to Bob Brown. Bob is known for being a
co-sponsor of the World UFO Congress hosted each year in Las
Vegas, and the producer of UFO videos through his Video City
Productions in Oakland. This was a ques- tion and answer
session with the questions from "constituents" going to a "town
counsel" com- posed of Dr. James Harder, Dr. Leo Sprinkle, Dr.
Richard Hains, and Dr. Richard Boylan. Three of the four
panelists are psychologists, and Dr. Harder is a civil engineer
and Prof. Emeritus of UCBerkeley, with a solid background in
the hard sciences.



It is beyond the scope of this short synopsis to go into great
detail, but I did find the following comments very interesting:



When Dr. Harder was asked how many alien races are visiting the
Earth, he was reticent to answer the question, except to say
that there were at least 20 documented and the he has reason to
believe that the true number is very (unbelievably) high. I
found this interesting that he would decline to give his full
opinion. In the past I have heard him speak of the Galactic
Federation, obviously relating information that contactees had
given him. Perhaps he has taken a great deal of flak in this
regard, and now chooses not to espouse this information
publicly.



And Dr. Hains, I believe it was, made the comment in response
to a different question of mistaking known atmospheric events
for UFO's "I don't believe there is such a thing as `ball
lightening'", to which many people applauded.



A subsequent speaker was Dr. John Salter, who expressed a great
deal regarding his own contact experiences over the course of
several years. An avid human rights activist, he related the
out- come of his FOIA investigations regarding files on him
kept by the FBI, and his designation as A1-8 (or similar code)
that listed him to be rounded up and detained in the case of
civil unrest or declaration of martial law. Dr. John Salter
teaches a course in UFO studies at the University of North
Dakota that assumes the earth is currently being visited by
ET's, and reported that attendance of that class numbers
nearly 200 students and is limited by classroom space. He also
reported that after his TV appearances on the CBS TV show,
Visitors for the Unknown, the US AirForce contracted his
services at an AirForce Base to speak to officers and cadets.



The main focus of the event was to encourage the open dialog
between these researchers, their patients or people they are
working with whom have had experiences, and people that want to
know more about this phenomena. Later in the program, the
individual "experiencers" took the podium, and expressed some
of the ideas that were related to them in their ET contacts. I
found it interesting that they would basically have the same
information to tell, sometimes so much so as to strain the
patience of the unprofessional listener. So this seems to be
one consistent factor in ET contact that was immediately
apparent. Some of the ideas related I have given before in a
previ- ous message, and will repeat here:



We need to take care of our children with all our love as a
society. - (Childrens' rights activists have argued for years
that we treat our children in this society as 3rd class human
beings. Without the rights, the resources, or the experience of
adults, they are at the mercy of their parents, teach- ers and
caretakers for almost everything they require to grow up
physically and mentally healthy. Virtually indigent, they have
no choice in who takes care of their needs, and are vulnerable
to a plethora of predators and pitfalls.)



We need to take care of our planet. We must change our ways
now, or the consequences with be dire. - (Read Sen. Gore's
book, he can say it better than I ever will.)



We need to stop killing each other, and start loving each
other. - (Will we every be free of the few that instigate wars
for the many?)



Take interest in the human condition, and speak up for civil
liberty, and fight intolerance, racism, and injustice. We must
work to evolve the human species as a whole.



Share these messages, and the fact of our existence with
others.



The main premise underlying the entire event was the sponsors'
belief that much of the current abduction literature is very
negative in orientation, and that this only serves to
"alienate" people from the underlying idea that all beings are
our galactic family, and reinforce paranoia, perhaps to our
government's ends. This would tend to go along with what I have
heard Michael Lindemann say; "As far as our government is
concerned, the only good alien, is a bad alien". And so, from
the beginning of the conference, the host told us that they
would not be using the term "abductee", because of the negative
implications it tends to impose. Instead, the term
"experiencer" and "contactee" would be used.



In defense of this posture, Dr. Boylan (as I recall) related
that his collected database of interviews with abductees tended
to indicated that all people who reported a negative experience
had a history of child abuse, or similar trauma at an early
age. Thus, he believes, as do his colleges to some measure,
that this is the bias that tends to make these experiences
negative to only some minority of people reporting contacts,
and that these underlying traumatic experiences have a great
deal to do with why these people seek out help and end up the
subjects of popular literature on the subject to date.



I think Dr. Harder and his colleagues have a very good point
here. While it is possible that some of the Greys are negative
in orientation, it is also quite possible that there is more
than one race of greys, and that like human beings on earth,
some are negative, while the majority are fairly positive
individuals.



Another main idea that came out of the conference is that we
tend to look at the UFO phenomena, and see only ourselves. We
relate to everything from our own very limited and myopic
viewpoint. They used the term anthropomorphism, which I had to
look up in the dictionary, to be sure I understood, it being
years since I took a social studies class: "The interpretation
of what is not human or personal, in terms of human or personal
characteristics". To analyze the ET experience in such terms is
to limit it within the bounds of our own human experience, and
surely limits it to a degree that insures we would never
completely understand it. That is why the panelists prefer to
largely abstain from judgement, and listen, document and
analyze the information given to us by the experiencers.



This last point is very important, and I feel it goes unheard
much too often; to abstain from judgement. This is not easy
to do; so often we want answers today, and make up our minds
quickly on a given case or branch of UFOlogy, which tends to
blind us in the future to new data constantly becoming
available.



I found it heartening that the dozen or so "experiencers" were
willing to get up in front of people and share some of their
thoughts. All seemed very lucid, and none were of a nature that
I would have assumed to be psychotic. All were very genuine; as
none of them were professional speakers that had any monetary
gain to look forward to by communicating with the audience. It
showed great courage to be in front of 400 people and claim
that ET's contact you on a regular basis. In light of that
idea, I found it ironic that many people did not attend the
symposium, because such sharing threatens their concept of
reality.



The insensitive, uniformed, and unimpressed right-off the
"abductees" as kooks. But to do so is to deny this new factor
of the human experience. For when tens of thousands of people
around the world are reporting such things every year, that is
exactly what we are talking about, the birth of a new chapter
in the book of human experience. Such can also be said for the
AIDS virus, and the exploration of space. Perhaps there are
parallels in ancient human history, but in modern times, these
are new experiences that people were not having 40 years ago.





For information on Audio/Video tapes of this event, contact the
following individuals or groups. When I asked at the
conference, it was not clear if video tapes would be made
available or not, so it may depend on how many people request
them in the coming weeks:



SAC

PO Box 9073

Berkeley, CA 94709-9073



Bob Brown

Video City Productions

Oakland, CA.

510-428-0202



Charles Wren

Shining Star Media (Audio tapes)

1781 Castlegate Rd.

San Jose, CA 95132

408-929-9290



Jeff -

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewsi!cbnewsh!att-out!rutgers!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!helium!corleyj
From: [e-mail] (Jason D Corley )
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mars Observer and "the face"
Summary: Is it Perot? The Shadow Knows...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 92 03:10:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group
Lines: 33


Distribution: world
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ
Keywords:

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>Why should we? The truth has yet to be told. :-(
>
>Rod

All right, we'll tell the truth.  All of it.  Right here,
right now.  The face on Mars has been accurately identified
by hard-working astronomers here at the Southern Arizona
Gizmonic Institute as being none other than presidential
candidate H. ROSS PEROT!!!

When viewed through a HIGH-TECH filter made out of LINGUINI
and $5 DOLLAR BILLS, it becomes clear that the indistinct,
vague photos FORCED upon us by NASA GOVERNMENT MIBs have been
retouched to AVOID revealing that the structures on BOTH sides
of the face resemble NOTHING more than GIGANTIC, MILE-LONG
EARS!!!!!!!!

This PROVES that Perot IS from OUTER SPACE and that, EVEN IF
NOT ELECTED he will use his INFLUENCE to transform OUR WOMEN
into TEN-FOOT-TALL WIENERSCHNITZELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Jason Corley, R&D
    Southern Arizona Gizmonic Institute
    Lab Deep 42

ObKibo:  Leader Kibo knows of this INSIDIOUS PLOT and will PROTECT
US ALL if we send him MOLDY TWINKIES and SPAM!!!!!!!!
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10259 alt.religion.kibology:4198
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer and "the face"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 05:22:15 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>
>ObKibo:  Leader Kibo knows of this INSIDIOUS PLOT and will PROTECT
>US ALL if we send him MOLDY TWINKIES and SPAM!!!!!!!!

No, it's fresh Twinkies and moldy Spam.  You see, I'm secretly jealous
of Noah Friedman's can of Spam which goes "Glurp, glurp, glurp!" when he
shakes it.  It is preserved over at the Free Spam Foundation in
Cambridge.  Help break the FSF's monopoly on Old Spam!

                            -- K.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12192 alt.alien.visitors:10260 alt.religion.kibology:4200
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From: [e-mail] (Montykins)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:46:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: University of California, San Diego
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Nntp-Posting-Host: sdcc13.ucsd.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Monster Watchers: Be advised Stan says Big Foot doesn't stink.
>I maintain that some of them do, with great justo.
>John Winston.

Well, isn't _that_ interesting.

No.

 -Paul "Monty" Ashley
--
All just the opinions of [e-mail].
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12193 alt.alien.visitors:10262
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 06:28:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Deep Thinkers: In regards to the person's comment about his origin
I believe it can be covered by the great poet that may have said in the
past, Me thinkest thou mayest be pulling my leg.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!rkrouse
From: [e-mail] (Robert K. Rouse)
Subject: Psychology of Skeptics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: skeptics
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 13:23:06 GMT
Lines: 93




   This was posted on sci.skeptic
A

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Fernee) writes:
>
>[all gone...]
>[
>>While sceptics retard the advancement of knowledge, let's try not be too
>>gullible either.
>
>This caught my eye. Do you know of any cases where a skeptic has retarded
>the advancement of knowledge? Does anyone? But even if a few cases are
>brought up, I think that as a generalization, it is wrong.


I think I have some empathy with what Mark is trying to say.

Based on some of his other posts, I understand that he talking about
extreme skepticism.

The scientific discipline of skepticism, where a large volume of junk
information has to be filtered out, unless `proof' is offered, is very
practical. No problem. It can be healthy.

There are two instances where extremism can become a problem:

(a) When the `proof' is overdogmatised, and made almost religious.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but scientific skeptics necessarily are
Objectivists in that they believe in reason, objective reality etc.
Therefore they must subscribe to the thesis (a la objective guru Karl Popper)
that science CANNOT prove anything true, but it can prove things false.
Therefore we more closely approximate towards scientific truth, as we refine our
models by falsifying bits that are wrong. As we chuck out the junk, we fine tune
towards the truth.

Notice, that this clashes with skepticism which out of economy likes
to prove that one thing is `true' rather than having to debunk 100 other
false things to get the same result.

Objective scientific skepticism therefore is not sound philosophically,
however it is pragmatically economic and thus has it's uses. Where it goes wrong
is when it is dogmatically elevated to philosophical status. Extremists who do
this are evoking lots of faith and are behaving religiously without realising
it.


(b) The second problem with `skeptical extremism' is that it retards
advancement (as Mark points out). This is an issue of attitude.
Let me explain:

Go into any bookshop and read biographies of successful people who have
created advancement in society. You will notice that the majority are
positive thinkers, optimists etc. That is because those who are negative
and pessimistic make little progress because they whinge and worry about
what might go wrong, instead of getting on with progress. This retards
progress.

Now a positive optimistic person regards skepticism as one of any number of
techniques that can he can pull out of his `toolbox' wherever appropriate.
He can be a skeptic when it has economic benefits.

He has a heathly veiw of skeptic techniques.

Now the psychology of the negative pessimistic person is that he is generally
that way because he has a low self-esteem. Skepticism is his prop.
Skepticism is his way of psychologically protecting himself. Because
of low self-esteem he does not like to risk ever appearing wrong.
Skepticism is a convenient way of always appearing right. Because if
you play the skeptic you will some times be right in which case you
take delight in saying "I told you so." And if you are wrong, your
self-esteem is propped up by saying to yourself "well, it's all part of
the method that I took that position." So it's just a way of never looking
stupid.

However, successful people are ones who are prepared to risk failure.
They make progress, even though they may have a trail of failures behind
them. They kept moving.

The guy who keeps static and just protects himself, using skepticism as a
psychological mask, retards progress.

I think this is what Mark might have been alluding to. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

--
==========================================================================
            Robert K. Rouse        [e-mail]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "VOTE! - use it or lose it"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ET Contact - The Meaning and the Message - REPORT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 06:36:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear People: I am glad to hear this information and hope that it will
help to get people thinking along the right line.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 12:28:40 GMT
Lines: 70

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Christopher Schmidt) writes:
>>
>> My preference would be to persuade contributors to discipline
>> themselves.  If your article falls in one of the following categories,
>> many of us think it would be better to find some other place for it:
>>
>> Christopher Schmidt
>> Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
>> [e-mail]
>
>
>Chris has a good idea, but is it workable?  Perhaps we could do something like
>rec.arts.tv does, and ask folks to put abbreviations in their header lines
>which would let us know what the general topic is.  How about this:
>
>NA  =  New Age stuff
>UFO =  Pertaining to UFO sightings and phenomena
>CE3 =  Close Encounters... alien contact
>INV =  Paranoid rantings about alien invasions
>VON =  VonDaniken-oid stuff like Atlantis/Mu/Spacemen
>GRAY = Stuff about Grays
>SCI  = Scientific (preferably not pseudo) findings on UFO related issues
>ABD  = Abduction information
>HOT  = Someone flaming someone else
>HA   = Jokes & silliness
>OP   = Opinions
>
>I'm sure there are others we could use, but these are a few basic ones.  How
>do you all feel about trying something like this?  It would help in using
>killfiles.
>
>Kellie M-S
>internet::[e-mail]
>
>p.s.  I also am tired of wading through hundreds of posts for the few "hard"
>ones that come through!  I'd like to see a bit more real info here.
>


Well, that is a good idea. However, the people that are posting this stuff
KNOW its not supposed to be in here. Getting them to properly tag their
posts with your abbreviation idea seems to me to be unrealisticly difficult.
However discouraging that may sound, this may not:

Since my original post a few days ago, I have had a virtual flood of e-mail
pouring in. I see flames to me here in the group ( a few ) but not one
flame in e-mail. I have had a few discouraging responses but only 2.

Now, here is my latest idea: before we even put keystroke one towards starting
a new group, lets get a FAQ together. Once that is done we will take the next
step. I think this will help. I also agree with all of you that say the
group needs moderated. I would like to contact the FAQ  writer and then
get that person to send me the rough draft. Then, to all the serious people
that sent me e-mail, I would send the FAQ. They could electronically mark it
up and send it back to me. I would then send the responses to the FAQ writer.
Sound like a good idea? I still think a new group, moderated and FAQed, would
be easier to create and maintain than trying to change
alt.alien.visitors.crackpots.fantasy.

Lets hear some more ideas.

Gregg.
[e-mail]

--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!vere
From: [e-mail] (Steven Vere)
Subject: Re: Anti-Gravity Flying Saucer
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 16:33:24 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steven Vere) writes:
>>   I saw the following in sci.research and thought people here might
>>be interested too.
>>_____________________________________________________________________
>
>[ a lot of phoney drivel rerouted to /dev/null...]
>
>>                                        Robert E. McElwaine
>>                                        B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Steve -
>
>Beware.  You've forwarded junk from one of the most extreme examples of
>net.whacko.off.my.rocker.make.gary.look.sane posters...
>
>BTW, no one has, to my knowledge, ever been able to verify that Bobbie has
>ever even _attended_ college, let alone graduated.
>
>Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]

Kevin:
   Please share with us information you have about Robert E.
McElwaine.  Or is the above the extent of your knowledge?


--
_____________________________________________________________________
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |

  Steven Vere                                       [e-mail]
  Boulder Creek, California                [e-mail]
     __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __
 |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |
_____________________________________________________________________
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ezekiel's spaceship
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 92 05:45:18 EDT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> One of these days maybe I'll get the time to tell about meeting the
> of the present incarnation of the prophet E.
> John Winston

Oh! Please do!

ASAP

-Garrett



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1992 18:10:10 GMT
Lines: 20

>Lets hear some more ideas.
>
>Gregg.

How about getting a brain?




The faq for this group is almost ready. I know, I wrote 40 pages of it.
WE are working very hard to transform this group into something worthwhile to
read, and your hosing it up. Moderate a new group; what are you going to call
it? sci.UFO.gregg.censured.nazi?

Oh great, unless you like my post, it ain't gonna show up. Just great.

Jeff-



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: 1st telescope?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 18 Oct 92 08:40:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 7

[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) wed 14 Oct 1992 00:44:09 GMT  types-
>Nope -The 1st telescope was invented about 1600

I can dig it man but isn't the Science Museum now claiming he probably
did?
And anyway should we discount the aliens?-let's not get Geocentric:-)

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!jeffp
From: [e-mail] (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Belgium UFO observation - 7 Apr 1990
Keywords: sighting belgium image processing Liege
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 17 Oct 92 18:28:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil) writes:
>Yesterday's tv show "le Point" in Montreal,QC,Canada showed a good review
>of some major past events supporting the existence of extra-terrestrial
>visits to our world.
>
>One part of the show dealt with the recent (90's) Belgium interest in the
>phenomenon, due to a wave of observations that brought together the civilian
>organization SOBEPS and the belgium air force.
>
>On April 7th, 1990 nearby Liege, Belgium, a color slide of a ufo was taken
>that was later on analysed by the "Ecole militaire royale" under the
>supervision of prof Marc Acheroy.
>
>The slide, after having been digitalized, was image processed to render new
>information, one of importance being the shape of the object through blue
>color enhancement.
>
>I would like to know if the data file of this famous belgium UFO picture is
>available, if anyone knows the internet address of either the prof  or the
>military college I mention.
>
>I would like to use that picture in an image processing course here, merging
>several interests into one endeanvour.

In case you or someone else is interested, the Dr. Steve Greer, CSETI group went over there
(to Belgium) and took a shot at communicating with these UFO's. I guess they
were like Gulf Breeze, appearing at regular intervals, and so they figured it
was worth the puddle jump. There is a self-published book that Dr. Greer
of this group has available, and it describes C5 interaction with the Gulf Breeze
ships/occupants, and also the trip to Belgium. Very interesting reading, I
think Greer is visionary, and certainly lends a bit of inovation to a stagnatingUFO effort. A practicing physician, he is a surgeon, and a very interesting guy.
Available from Bob Brown at Video City Productions, Oakland, CA. $10 + postage.

Jeff-
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a80
From: [e-mail] (Greg Goss)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Newage stuff in a.a.v
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 92 01:21:03 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 14

I agree that there needs to be some control exercised, but I think that it
should be used to convince people to make THIS group closer to what it was
intended for.  Christopher Schmidt mentions three issues that should be
watched more carefully.

1.  off-topic discussions.  He mentions Abortion.  I'd see Gun Control and
Astral Travel to be off-topic, too.

2. and 3.  "be excellent to each other".  I like these rules.

.../greg

--
"say NO to four-line sigs"     [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!rhys
From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SETI
Keywords: SETI
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 92 04:51:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 45

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes:

>                            SETI

>This might be a clever way for the US government to spill the beans.

>My suggestion:

>1a) After 2 months/days/weeks of SETI:
>2a) After 2 years/months, depending on 1b:

[...]

>                    - Would it work?

Nup.  If they find the signals that quickly, they must have already been
there, so why haven't they been detected and announced already?

Too many people in this group think that the US government controls every
aspect of astronomy (among other things).  There are thousands of amateur
astronomers, and thousands of professional astronomers in other countries.
Why haven't they picked something up yet?

The new SETI hardware will help in the search, but why spend millions of
dollars on new hardware if the signals have already been detected?  Why not
just point any ordinary radio telescope at the spot, and concentrate on it,
find out everything about it and then announce something?  It would save an
awful amount of money that way.

In any case, 5 minutes after _anyone_ announces positive contact, every
astronomer in the world will have their instruments pointed at the spot to
confirm the contact and find out as much as possible.  It will be out of the
hands of the original "discoverers".  There's no way any government could
gradually announce discoveries, least of all the US government.

Just stop and think for once: the kind of conspiracies needed to cover up
or gradually announce any kind of alien signal would involve thousands of
people in dozens of countries - you just can't keep that many people quiet.

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!sgiblab!sgigate!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Psychology of Skeptics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: skeptics
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1992 07:35:10 GMT
Lines: 30





Robert Rouse [writes],


>However, successful people are ones who are prepared to risk failure.
>They make progress, even though they may have a trail of failures behind
>them. They kept moving.

>The guy who keeps static and just protects himself, using skepticism as a
>psychological mask, retards progress.


Hallelujah!!!!!! Hit the nail square on the head! Like I said, " No balls,
no blue chips! "

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12200 alt.alien.visitors:10274
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 07:54:16 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48


Subject: Two Ladies From
Under Mt. Shasta. Part 4.
  Q. What was it that destroyed Atlantis?  A. After the destruction of
Lemuria, which was caused by natural catastrophe, for a long time the planet
was unstable, for about 200 or 300 years. The pyramids were built before the
destruction of Lemuria. At his time the Atlanteans were becoming difficult
and several of them who believed in the Law of the One did not care for what
the scientists were doing.  The scientists were experimenting with monster
crystals that had unbelievable power.
  Q. Were there any biological experiments like cloning or with DNA?  A. Yes,
there were.  This had been going on for hundreds of years by that time, they
were using the "things" as their slaves.  Some people left Atlantis at this
time and came to Mt. Shasta where the Lemurians had built a city called
Telos.

   Q. Now the Atlanteans started  experimenting with huge crystals-were these
the fire crystals? A. Yes, they generated cosmic energy. It is the cut of
the crystal which causes the genration (wavelenth?).   It draws out of the
atmosphere (the energy) and generates it into a high force and higher
vibration.  It has no moving parts.  The crystal has an inner fire-they
change colors.  The crystals the Atlanteans used built up energy they could
not control.
  Q. Is this the secret of the power source on flying saucers? A. Yes, a lot
of it is crystals, particularly the atmospheric vehicles.  The
planet-to-planet vehicles are driven by an ion-Mercury engine.  Spaceships
can reach speeds way beyond light-they can enter hyperspace-you generate
into the fourth dimension this is controlled by an-on-board computer that
takes you into and out of  hyperspace. I know this is a simplification.
When you're on a ship going into hyperspace, you will hear this vibration
and a loud screaming sound when you enter, then you will hear nothing.
  Q. Do you travel between galaxies?  A. Yes, that is when you enter
hyperspace when you are going a far, far distance.
  Those interested in finding out more about Bill;s work can write  for
information on his privately published manuscript Alien Magic, and his group
UFORCES, Bill may be reached directly at 249 North Brand Boulevard, Suite
651, Glendale, CA 91203.
The End.
  So these are my (John Winston's) words. That's all folks for this subject
about Bill Hamilton. Please let me know if there are any other subjects you
would like discussed by contacting me through E-mail.
John Winston. the "things" as their slaves.  Some people left Atlantis aE
wE
,4x xXxZx%x
kxx^    xi    x8xGx
,<
0Roman 10cpiation (wavelenth?).   It draws out of the atmosphere (the
energy) and generates it into a high force and high
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Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 13:33:34 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 58

Subject: Big Foot. Part 4.
  This is Stan talking again; Anyway back to my own experiences. This contact
went on there for oh, I guess five of six months, and then the next thing
that came up was I met a Star Person from the stars, from planet Sitka.  Her
name was Queen La-tara, they called her high priestess or queen, either one
up there.  Then I met another one by the name of Deena, she was a priestess
of Arice or queen of the planet Arice.  So when I met them why, they both
came down right in my front yard, beamed down and they  made me the
good-will ambassador to educate Earth people; to get us to make friends with
them from the western part of the United States.  And I don't know how far
this actually covers. But anyway, so that's what I'm trying to do, Lord
knows how, I don't.
  And I'll tell you another interesting thing.  The first time I met
Sasquatch, he got up and prayed and prayed to God. I hadn't prayed in 40
years but I prayed with him.  The Star People say that if they don't do
something, that this planet is gonna fall to pieces; but they can put it
back in place.  They have told me that there are 18 planets in our solar
system and they've got to all work together.  They must all be the same,
have the same weight, capacity and everytihing, or else, one of them starts
to rock it.  It's like putting 18 boats out there on a lake, and one darn
fool starts a rockin them; and that one rocking boat is us, we're the fools.
 Why then, this rocks all the other seventeen and they {the Star People}
can't have that happen because that's hurtin' them out there in our
constellation.  I guess that's about all I can tell you.
  Question: Have you specifically asked questions so that you could get
answers or has it been just random information? Answer: Well the first
question that I ever really asked, I mean I asked them several questions
because I wanted to know, but the first one I asked was if they prayed to
God and who was their God.  They said that God and the son of God were the
ones that they worshipped.  Then I made the first mistake that I ever made
in my life, really it was a bad mistake, not really that bad. I was really
inquistitive because I always thought or maybe I had heard or read from the
very little bit I've ever read about them so I asked them if they could tell
me about their sex life  just what it was all about or like. And this guy
said, "Hey! Let me first say, you better understand this, that we're not
animals!!" We don't have not sex  with our daughters, our cousins or
anything like that. We go back to maybe 5th or 6th generation before we can
get married!! But not any sooner.  And he added right fast, we don't  have
sex with your people.   I can show you a picture of a sixteen year old girl
that is beautiful.  And so anyway, they even gave me the right to see his
daughter, the sixteen year old daughter.
  Also they have family names.  There is the Rrowe family, which is the family
I'm talkin' about so far. And that's spelled with a Big R and then a small
r-o-w-e. Like R-rowe see, there's two r's there.  And then there's the
Beverly family, there's a Crystal family and a Sitka family--all in this
area, back up in the mountains. The Sitka family is different from the
family I  know, they have little furly hair all over their faces but the
same facial features with little kinky hair over their whiskers, the women
don't, the men do.  Whereas the R-rowe family, the men have it up to there,
just not as high as the Sitka family, and for the women it starts right
here, they have some hair on their chin.  And their sixteen year old girl,
well when we go back upstairs, we'll stop by the room and I'll show it to
you. Tomorrow I will be showing a picture {was sketched by an artist based
on Stan's description} about this large {of a Male Bigfoot, the picture was
about 6 feet high by 2-3 feet, similar to the cover of this book} and a
footprint and handprint that I've got in plaster paris.
End of Part 4.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12203 alt.alien.visitors:10276 sci.skeptic:32631
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 15:36:32 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36

Subject: History of the Earth (4.5 billion years). Part 3a.
  This is a contiuation of a discussion by a space intelligence on the history
of the Earth.
  Man survived but they started quarreling again, they started fighting one
another and reduced man to a little more than the animal state. He was
nearly wiped out at  that time.
  The ninth colonization, there was another ice age that came and a new type
of man arose.  They made a council of nations at the time and Atlantis and
Lemuria fell into dispute over rights, prestige and national honor. IOW The
continent of Atlantis and Lemuria started bickering over personal things.
Their conflicts hastened the natural cataclysms that marked the end of
another age.  They started fighting and their war kind of triggered off the
natural upheavals.  The great quaking of Earth destroyed most traces of
Lemuria and caused the continent of Atlantis to sink into the sea of
oblivion.  So Atlanatis and Lemuria sunk.
  Lemuria and Atlantis had experimented with nuclear experiments, the space
people decended upon earth.  Thus some groups of this world who wanted to
live in peace were lifted from the Earth in seven great star ships.  IOW The
space people came along whenever they saw that these peole had atomic energy
and they were going to pick them up, the good type people in seven big
spaceships.
  Another nation of Earth tried to move to other parts of the Earth to get
away from the war.  The radioactivity of the bombs caused natural upheavals
that destroyed all of some and great segments of other once proud races of
people.
 Man again became a cave dweller, so that's about the third time that man has
become a cave dweller (caveman).  Mans status was reduced to the beasts of
the field (forest).
  A race of spirit beings came to help man.  Adam was the first of this group
of people.  Adam was, though you may scoff, who was known to the ancients of
your race as Zeus. His brothers and sisters were the ancient gods and
goddesses.  So Adam was a race of people, a clan of people, and he was
reported in the Bible and Zeus was the same person and he was recorded in
Greek Mythology.
End Part 3a.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Belgium UFO observation - 7 Apr 1990
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 22:06:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: sighting belgium image processing Liege
Lines: 52

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil) writes:

>Yesterday's tv show "le Point" in Montreal,QC,Canada showed a good review
>of some major past events supporting the existence of extra-terrestrial
>visits to our world.

>One part of the show dealt with the recent (90's) Belgium interest in the
>phenomenon, due to a wave of observations that brought together the civilian
>organization SOBEPS and the belgium air force.

>On April 7th, 1990 nearby Liege, Belgium, a color slide of a ufo was taken
>that was later on analysed by the "Ecole militaire royale" under the
>supervision of prof Marc Acheroy.

>The slide, after having been digitalized, was image processed to render new
>information, one of importance being the shape of the object through blue
>color enhancement.

>I would like to know if the data file of this famous belgium UFO picture is
>available, if anyone knows the internet address of either the prof  or the
>military college I mention.

>I would like to use that picture in an image processing course here, merging
>several interests into one endeanvour.

>--
>---
>Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
>[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
>                                McGill University, Montreal

Hi,
I have posted a while ago a JPEG pic of this UFO, which I digitized
from the TV-series unsolved mysteries..

It is still available in the UFO FTP site at:

130.231.240.17  in pub/ufo_and_space_pics  or in pub/incoming


Best regards, Stefan Hartmann,c/o Gatz & Hartmann
email to: [e-mail]



--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!rhys
From: [e-mail] (Rhys Weatherley)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens on internet
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 92 23:42:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 27

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (PAUL BRETTLE) writes:

>It wouldn't suprise me if, rather than messing around in spacecraft and all
>that, Aliens have already plugged into the Internet via the Deep Space
>Network.

The DSN has very little to do with the Internet.  Heck, it's enough fun just
getting the commands out to the probes through-out the solar system and
receiving the responses, without carrying Internet traffic on it as well. :-)

>It would be a very easy way of interacting with terrestial life, with
>little risk of being discovered.

Since most of the Internet is carried on ground-based cable or on satellites
pointed at the ground, very little of it is probably escaping.  What little
that is escaping would be drowned out by the TV and radio signals, which are
in turn drowned out by military radars, etc.

In any case, if any aliens are tapped into USENET, they are probably just
gathering evidence that there is no intelligent life on Earth. :-)

Cheers,

Rhys.
--
Rhys Weatherley, University of Queensland, Australia.
[e-mail]  "I'm a FAQ nut - what's your problem?"
Xref: icaen alt.conspiracy:19141 alt.alien.visitors:10279
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From: [e-mail] (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Space Domination Initiative
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 00:09:03 GMT
Lines: 102

[e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:

>This militarization of space would represent a quantum leap in weaponry
>similar to the invention of the nuclear weapon and the Intercontinental
>Ballistic Missile.  And yet, there's been little discussion in Congress
>or elsewhere of the tremendous financial costs, the technical problems
>or the odds that generating a space-based arms race may leave the
>world a more dangerous place than it is now.

On the contrary, there's been plenty of discussion, and congress is skeptical
of anything more expensive than Earth based missiles and orbiting sensors.

>The official anti-missile scheme calls for a constellation of
>surveillance satellites (Brilliant Eyes), watching for fiery rocket
>plumes, the telltale indicator of an enemy launch.  In a lower orbit, a
>larger constellation of human-sized interceptors (Brilliant Pebbles)
>wait for the signal, then attack the missiles and destroy them.

>In the unofficial version, much of which has been invented at Livermore,
>the Eyes will be equipped with radars, lasers, telescopes, antennae and
>sensors to allow military commanders to see practically every square
>foot of Earth--and analyze that information instantly.

Increasing the capability of satellites like this increases their mass
significantly.  The biggest problem we have with spysats is a lack of
interpreters to examine the data.  The last thing we need is more data.

>In a conventional war, according to a proposal being promoted around
>the Pentagon by Lowell Wood, Brilliant Pebbles would be ordered to leave
>their orbits and fly downward at high speed to hit targets on the sur-
>face of the planet with great precision.

BP, as now designed, is utterly unable to do this.  They lack the sensors,
guidance and aerodynamics.

>In Colorado Springs, we asked Teller while he was walking to lunch one
>day if Pebbles could be used to hit enemy command bunkers, a
>high-priority target in the war with Iraq.  He stopped walking.

>"Look," he said, in his commanding form of speech.  "Yes.  And in a war,
>you would."

Teller may be a brilliant physicist, but he is is well known for is infatuation
with bizzare SDI concepts and was responsable for much of the wasted research
in the early SDIO.

>But these endoweapons may be fringe projects.  Threatening enemy
>satellites would seem to be Pebbles' main goal.

BP is also unable to hit satellites as now configured.  Missiles generate an
incredible amount of heat which is easy to track.  Satellites are much harder
to detect from orbit.  In addition, most satellites orbit far above BPs and
would thus be very hard to hit.

>In their blockade role, Pebbles would be transformed into enforcement
>battleships, poised to destroy any missile attempting to run the
>blockade and put a satellite in orbit.

Missiles don't put satellites in orbit.  Launchers or rockets do.

>Equally important is the role of Pebbles as anti-satellite weapons, or
>ASATs, to knock out satellites already in orbit.  Having the ability to
>eliminate any satellite, whether military or commercial (the difference
>between the two is diminishing)

Actually, the difference is getting bigger.  Many commerical satellites have
no military value, and few military sattelites (with the exception of GPS) are
commerically valuable.

>Although the U.S. military has long wanted ASAT weapons, Congress has
>denied them, fearing an expensive arms race in space.  But the generals
>have not given up.

The other reason is that ASAT weapons are very destabilizing, so politicians
are much less excited about them than generals are.

>So bothersome is the ABM treaty that President Bush is personally
>pushing Boris Yeltsin to yield.  Teller's missile purchases would be a
>way of buying the Russians out of the treaty.  On the other hand, U.S.
>military contractors don't want competition in the launch-vehicle
>business.

The ABM treaty is completly different from the one (the START treaty?) which
limits the uses of former missiles.

>But since any satellite is suspect in wartime, the U.S.,
>the backgrounder says, should quickly develop a "capability to enforce a
>military 'keep-out' zone in space over a battle area."

First, not all satellites have military value (can you think of a strategic
use for an ultra-violet telescope that can't face the Earth?).  Second,
Most areas can't have a "no fly" zone over them without taking huge numbers
of satellites out of orbit.

The rest of the post (on how SDI is crazy) does have some valididty as long as
you don't take it to far.

--
Josh Hopkins                                          [e-mail]
     The views expresed above do not necessarily reflect those of
ISDS, UIUC, NSS, IBM FSC, NCSA, NMSU, AIAA or the American Association for the
                      Advancement of Acronymphomaniacs
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12204 alt.alien.visitors:10280 sci.skeptic:32636
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 01:00:28 GMT
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in part:
|> Subject: Too Tall Salley.
[...]
|> Source of information: Sun August 7, 1990 page 2
|> John Winston.

In case you didn't realize it, the Sun, WWN, and the Enquirer are all
widely available.  Please don't take the trouble to reprint material
from these sources, as we all can read them for ourselves.

Thanks.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!lanai.cs.ucla.edu!pierce
From: [e-mail] (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 03:53:46 GMT
Lines: 8

In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes in alt.conspiracy:
>Can anybody tell me if the alt.alien.visitors newsgroup still exists?
>It seems to have been cut-either here at the University of Illinois at
>Chicago or it could be more widespread... ?? Please respond if you know.
>Ethan Haslett
>[e-mail]


Xref: icaen sci.skeptic:32641 alt.alien.visitors:10282 sci.astro:22028
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Menzel and UFOs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: ufo
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 04:25:39 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes:
>>
>>>Menzel should be taken with a very large dose of salt.  A number of the
>>>people who dealt with him in the early years of ufology (such as E.J.
>>>Ruppelt, the head of Project Blue Book from 1951-53, and J. Allen
>>>Hynek, the science adviser to Blue Book for many years) apparently
>>>considered Menzel to be arrogant, devious, and dishonest.  Many of his
>>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Read that again, he said... "and J. Allen Hynek, the science adviser to
>                                 --------------
>Blue Book for many years) apparently considered Menzel to be arrogant,
>                          ----------------------------------
>devious, and dishonest." Now you may say that "J. Allen Hynek" did not
>say this, but if he did, then the statement is accurate, even if the part
>about Menzel is not.

This statement is attributed to "a number of the people who dealt with
him", and not merely to Hynek. You have not shown this to be the case,
even if it *were* Hynek's opinion. And while I did hear Hynek critique Menzel
on several occasions, it was always on the grounds of being 'closed minded
about UFOs', or words to that effect. He never insinuated that Menzel was
"devious" or "dishonest."

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Menzel And Ufos
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 18 Oct 92 16:48:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 51


 > I should point out that Menzel's co-author here was Dr. Ernest Taves,
 > a respected psychiatrist. It was suggested in an earlier post that
 > Menzel
 > should have gotten proper input from a mental health professional on
 > the matter of the Hill case. Obviously, he did.

What was Dr. Benjamin Simon?

 > This is nothing short of slander against a respected astronomer, whose
 > contributions to the science of astronomy far outweigh any those of any
 > pro-UFOlogist in the field. I agree that Menzel was sometimes arrogant
 > (many distinguished, elderly scientists sometimes get that way). I
 > further agree that sometimes he was careless (who isn't?). But
 > to call him "devious and dishonest" is a reprehensible and groundless
 > insult to the memory of an oustanding scientist, who taught and did
 > research
 > for many years at Harvard University.

J. Allen Hynek was a respected astronomer too.  How about Dr. Jacques Vallee? Should I go on?  As far as contributions to the science of astronomy "outweighing any those of any pro-UFOlogist in the field" goes, that is garbage.  I can make a list of outstanding scientists who are investigating or who have investigated this subject, only to find that there *IS* something going on.  As far as Menzel is concerned, if he outright debunked the subject, this is not science since many of his colleagues felt diffe




rently.

 > Whoever has more confidence in Friedman, who calls himself the "flying
 > saucer physicist" and has been a full-time UFO promoter for many
 > years, than in Dr. Menzel, is seriously deluded. Friedman has
 > been promoting many UFO hoaxes over the years, including the ridiculous
 > "Gulf Breeze UFO photos" and the "MJ-12 papers". If we are comparing
 > credibility and character, I would rate that of a respected scientist
 > like Menzel over that of a slick UFO huckster like Friedman any day.

Whatever you call Friedman, he has the credentials to back his credibility. What have you got to substantiate your background as "debunker"???

 > Friedman and pals would like us to forget that, during World War II,
 > virtually EVERY scientist in the U.S. became involved in military
 > research, most of which was highly classified. Even the late Dr. J.
 > Allen Hynek, a saint to those in the UFO movement, did classified
 > research on military projects during World War II. I heard him say
 > this myself. Even Asimov and Heinlein did secret military research,
 > and had high clearances; does this make them suspect?

It makes you suspect!  Sorry, Robert, but the position of "debunker" is currently filled.  Perhaps another time, you could apply for the job.

 > The "MJ-12 papers" are garbage. They were confabulated by a hoaxer
 > using a photocopied signature of Harry Truman taken from a real
 > letter in the Truman library. Get real.

Perhaps, but this does not in any way invalidate the phenomenon of UFOs.  And, you state this as if you know it is fact.  Do you know something that we don't?  :-)

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ezekiel's Space Ship
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 08:00:17 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 18

Dear Truth Seekers:
There was a time in my training that I came in contact with a number of
people who had been mentioned in the Bible. They were born like anyone
else in this incarnation but they had been people who were in the Bible.
One of the people was Ezekiel. In this life he was Joeseph Busby, teacher
of religious people from England and he is probubly dead now.  I made
an appointment to meet him over in Los Gastos where he was on tour and
speaking to people. I asked him if he was Ezekiel and he said that he
preferred not to bask in the effulugence of a previous incarnation. It's
only important what you are doing now.  I also asked him what the wheel
in a wheel was in the Bible. He said, "My dear friend, Mr. Winston, that
was an inter-dimensional spaceship used to transport Ezekial from one
place to another and then bring him back later. An engineer once examined
the Bible in the hope to prove the story of Ezekial wrong. He found it
to be true and even made a drawing of what he thought the ship looked
like. More and more conventional preachers are now saying from their
pulpits that it was a spacehip.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 07:31:34 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Big Foot Smellers: Please don't quote me on some of this information.
This is Stan's opinion. I don't know whether we have 18 planets in our
solar system and some of the male Big Foot seem to like our females.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 07:42:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Kathie: You asked about the aura. Please let me put my 2 cents
worth in this discussions. In the past I have interviewed a person
who goes around the psychic fairs taking pictures of people with his
aura camera then a person who is psychic gives you a discussion on
the colors of your aura as seen on the picture. He now has a more
elaborate system that uses a computer, screen and TV that allows you
to see your own aura is action. The next time I contact him I'll call
you.
John Winston
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10287 alt.conspiracy:19154
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: INVASION!!!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 08:04:58 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Gary: Sounds like you are having some far-out experieces. Please
keep us informed.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12208 alt.alien.visitors:10288 sci.skeptic:32649
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 08:34:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 25

Subject: You Tell Um Stan.
  As most of you know Stanton Freedman has just come out with his new book
called Crash at Corona and a few people are talking about it in the news
media. I saw Stan in a line while he was signing up as a speaker and I was
signing in as part of the press at a convention in San Francisco last summer
(1991). He was in a hurry and didn't say much but in his introductory
lecture he was still talking about what he had been talking about two years
before (Roswell). Many people may question whether or not he is a truthful
person and is doing what he is doing for the proper motives but he has the
tenacity of a bulldog when it comes to sticking with a story.  Here are some
of the things that he's bringing out in his book; A party of hikers stumbled
upon the crashed UFO and it's injured occupants in the desert and tried to
help them.  A nurse saw the humanoids after they were brought to the Army
airfield and sketched them on a piece of paper. A mortician in Roswell got a
mysterious phone call from military officials asking him how to go about
preserving the tiny bodies.
  The people found a metalic disk with three crew members laid out on the
ground. There was one sitting up right. He looked like he was in pretty good
shape, but the rest of them looked like they were dead. They looked like
dolls. I saw one of them moving and reacting.  The military then came in and
ordered us out of the area. The three were small, fragile and had no hair.
Their noses didn't protrude and they didn't have thumbs or fingernails.
  So that's all folks. We shall see what we shall see.
John Winston

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nic.unh.edu!unhtel!morwyn!forrie
From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: The debate continues ...
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 14:26:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48


Here's an article just published today in the Boston Globe:

(AP - Irving, Texas)

    Both sides in a UFO debate remain light years apart nearly half a century
after the Army claimed briefly that it had recovered a flying disc in New
Mexico.
    About 200 specialists and enthusiasts at a weekend conference agreed that
the 1947 announcement about a UFO was a big mistake. But they disagreed
heatedly over how the mistake was made.
    "The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday when
the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group ... was fortunate enough to
gain possession of the disc," the Army release said.
    Skeptics say there is no hard eveidence that the wreckage was anything
other than the remains of a military balloon. That was the Army's final
explanation.
    "It was a big embarrassment," Philip J. Klass, as UFO disbeliever, said
at the national meeting of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
Claims of the Paranormal.  The group based in Buffalo.
    But some reasearchers say the government goofed in 1947 by calling
attention to the find - and has had to cover it up ever since. "It was no
... weather balloon," was the deathbed declaration of a witness, said Donald
R. Schmitt of the J. Allen Hyneck Center for UFO Studies in Chicago, co-author
of a book about the episode.
    Not only does Schmitt believe the wreckage was a UFO, he is investigating
reports that the military recovered the bodies of aliens. He is trying to find
a nurse believedto have helped with an autopsy.

------ End of Article ---------


    My 2 cents:  I thought it was known that the 'nurse' involved with this
    case had passed away, or was found dead... no?

    I posted this article because to acknowledge that there is definately
    (or seems to be) a rise in the publication of such articles.  The Boston
    Globe is not known for feeding or creating 'bluff stories', nor supporting
    them, and is generally an excellent paper.

    Forrest

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Good Job!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: Nobody can argue with the truth.
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 15:26:32 GMT
Lines: 31


This message is for Michael Corbin.  I am very happy to see postings from
you, Mike.  I just read the one about trying to put down Stanton Friedman
and the Gulf Breeze Sightings, which you defended so well.  I just want to
put in my two cents worth for everyone here to know.  I know people here,
not all of them but a lot of them think I'm a "kook" as well, even more so
than most other people because of the unimaginable things I speak about.
But I want to tell you, Mike, and everyone else on here, that I went to
the UFO convention here in LA with a completely open mind.  I especially
wanted to meet John Lear, as John Grace (aka Val Valerian) has been
helping me with my book, and who, with John Lear, tried to get in touch
with me in jail after I was arrested for the David Horowitz thing.  I can
tell you that I found John Lear to be a very compassionate and honest man.
 He was very kind to me, and even took me to dinner with another friend of
his.  He also introduced me to Linda Moulton Howe, who is a FOX of the
highest caliber, and I had NO reason whatsoever to disbelieve anything any
of the people of their statue had to say after having met them personally.
 I am a VERY good judge of human character, and they came across to me as
honest people just doing a special task which requires an open and
positive mind.  I KNOW John Lear believes in what he knows and that it is
true.  I am not sure if possibly he has been receiving disinformation, but
if he has, he feels it is the truth.  I personally, except for the
channeling crap, believe everything I heard those two days.


--
Gary Stollman    Internet: [e-mail]     GEnie: G.STOLLMAN
-----------------------------------------------------------------
          The world is your playground.  Keep it clean!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!strath-cs!str-ccsun!dct.ac.uk!mcsdc1al
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 15:37:35 GMT
Organization: Dundee Institute of Technology
Lines: 4

While I know aliens exist and constantly pervade our existence through
experience I must say WHAT A SAD LOSER THIS GUY IS!!!
    Stop polluting my brain with this baloney.  Put it in a book
(SF novels sell well nowadays) or something but fot god's sake WAKE UP!!!
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12209 alt.alien.visitors:10292 sci.skeptic:32655
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gumby!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 17:14:04 GMT
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes in part:
|> Subject: You Tell Um Stan.
[...]
|> Many people may question whether or not he is a truthful
|> person and is doing what he is doing for the proper motives but he has the
|> tenacity of a bulldog when it comes to sticking with a story.  Here are some
|> of the things that he's bringing out in his book; [...]

Since "Stan" is well known to be a highly unreliable source, the
possiblity that he is tenacious in his lies is not really terribly
convincing.  The mere fact that he is STILL rehashing the fictional
Roswell incidents as if they really happenned indicates that he
is a fabulist and not to be take very seriously.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: regarding aliens are from hell
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 16:58:20 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Corrina Madrid) writes:
>
>I too have heard the same thing.  In a way it makes sense to me.
>I will not go into my explanation why it makes sense, but it does.
>hmmm anyone else...

That is the stand that I and many of my friends have taken. Seems to be a
real good "sign of the times" for the emminence of Christ's return.

I have a whole series of tapes of a preacher regarding UFO's (8 cassettes)
where he documents well over 200 sightsings/encounters. Very thorough. And
also taught from the Biblical standpoint and a few "hints" at 'UFO's' in
the Bible

--
+--------------------+-----------------------+------------------------+
|  Charles E. Evans  |  [e-mail]  |        Fear God        |
|    iDLE CHATTEr    |  [e-mail]  |  Love the brotherhood  |
|    Idle chatteR    |[e-mail] |  Pray without ceasing  |
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!cee1
From: [e-mail] (Charles Evans)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: This was in my town's newspaper this morning...
Summary: Roswell a hoax?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 17:13:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Mississippi State University
Lines: 64


        Starkville (MS) Daily News, October 19, 1992.

            "UFO debate resurfaces"

IRVING, Texas (AP) -- Both sides in a UFO debate remain light years apart
nearly half a century after the Army claimed briefly it had recovered a
flying disc in New Mexico.

About 200 experts and enthusiasts at a weekend conference agreed the 1947
announcement about an unidentified flying object in Roswell was a big mistake.
They disagreed heatedly over how the mistake was made.

"The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday when the
intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group . . . was fortunate enough to
gain possession of the disc," the Army release said.

Skeptics say there is no hard evidnce the wreckage was anything other than the
remains of a military balloon.  That was the Army's final explanation.

"It was a big embarrassment," UFO debunker Philip J. Klass at the national
meeting of the Committe for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal.

SSICOP, based in Buffalo, N. Y., encourages the critical investigation of
paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible scientific point of
view, the group says.

The release was issed on the authority of an intellignece officer who was un-
able to identify the wreckage, said Klass, former senior editor of Aviation
Week and Space Technology.

But some researchers believe the government goofed in 1947 by calling attention
to the find -- and has had to cover it up ever since.

"It was no[t] . . . another balloon," was the deathbed declaration of an eyewit-
ness, according to Donald R. Schmitt, co-author of "UFO Crash at Roswell" and
director of special investigations at the J. Allen Hyneck Center for UFO
Studies in Chicago.

Not only does Schmitt believe the wreckage was a UFO, he is investigating
reports that the military recovered the bodies of aliens from the craft.  He is
trying to hind a nurse beleived to have helped with an "autopsy."

The nurse had told a friend the bodies were smaller and more delicate than an
adult human, with large heads and large concave eyes, Schmitt said in his book.
Their hands had four fingers and no thumb, she reportedly said.

"We are convinced she is still alive," Schmitt said Saturday.

------

[] are my insertions.

Any comments?

chuckie


--
+--------------------+-----------------------+------------------------+
|  Charles E. Evans  |  [e-mail]  |        Fear God        |
|    iDLE CHATTEr    |  [e-mail]  |  Love the brotherhood  |
|    Idle chatteR    |[e-mail] |  Pray without ceasing  |
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 15:36:41 GMT
Lines: 107

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:
>Hi Gregg (and everyone else),
>
>Here we go again... ;^)
>
>I'm all for creating a new news group with a more serious slant towards
>UFOs. Since you've initiated this attempt, I'll give you some free advice
>after participating in the last few attempts:
>
>  - leave alt.alien.visitors alone (i.e. don't try to change it or
>    rename it.) It is an "anything goes" newsgroup that provides
>    access to the New Age side of UFology. Noone could ever change it.
>    Besides, judging by the name, it was never meant for anything serious.

I agree. I wouldn't want to change it. I actually enjoy (at times) reading
some of the National Enquirer type articles.

>
>  - keep your proposal simple. You will never be able to get consensus
>    with a large complicated new group proposal. Define 1 new newsgroup
>    that meets the following criteria:
>
>    - the name *must* not pre-judge the phenomenon (i.e. alt.alien.visitors)
>                                                                 ^^^^^
>    - the name should *try* to fit into an existing hierarchy to avoid
>      creating a new top-level group. The net.anal.retentives get
>      real p.o.'d at top-level newsgroups unless there is a good reason.
>          You could try for a sci news group (after all sci.skeptic got
>          one), but there will be less resistance in alt (IMO)
>
>    - the name must sound "serious" (alt.ufo-crash.bang.bang.bang is
>      right out ;^)
>
>    - the name (hierarchy) *should* be expandable if new groups *need*
>      to spin off (i.e. abductions, mutilations, crop circles)
>      (keep in mind that something like alt.ufos.crop-circles falls
>      victim to pre-judgement) I really don't think that more than
>      one group is necessary (IMO of course).
>
>   - don't just create a new alt group. Power tripping news admins will
>     refuse to carry it out of spite ;^)
>
>   - post a new group proposal to alt.config and cross-post it to other
>     groups that may be interested (i.e. alt.paranormal, alt.conspiracy,
>     sci.skeptic, alt.alien.visitors, etc...) Your proposal should have
>     a group charter to say what stuff is encouraged and what is discouraged
>     (be careful here!) and some hard promises for regular FAQ postings. Be
>     prepared to argue as to why we need a new group instead of using
>     sci.skeptic or alt.alien.visitors (no trouble for readers of these
>     groups, but try convincing someone who is *not* interested in UFOs
>     that it is a worthy interest) If you feel any kind of consensus,
>     call for a vote. A simple "create this newsgroup Y/N?" vote is
>     probably best. If you can't get consensus with one group name then
>     get people to vote for 1 of the N choices (or for *no* new group).
>
>   - try to get a promise of regular posting of research material from
>     other "serious" UFO groups or organizations (i.e. MUFON, Paranet, etc..)
>     *if* (and only if) the new group is created. (i.e. "promise candy" ;^)
>
>   - remember that a new group won't necessarily scare away the New Agers.
>     All you can really promise is a charter, FAQ, and the right to discourage
>     flaky postings (which nobody has on alt.alien.visitors).
>
>   - remember to mention the benefits to the readers of other groups, not
>     just the new group. Lots of alt.alien.visitors readers would *love*
>     to be able to get rid of us darn "researchers".
>
>   - try to organize through email, with 1 person as the central
>     organizer (Since you started it - I nominate you Gregg.)

I guess I am trying to organize through e-mail. If time permits I will be
sending out some inquiries today. I will also be contacting the FAQwriter.

>
>
>What will I do? Well... I'll promise to contribute to the FAQ of the
>new group if it is created. I'll even take on Roswell if required ;^)
>What would I propose? 1 new group: alt.ufo.research.
>

IMHO you have a great idea. Seems that you are somewhat experienced with
the process. With that in mind, I would like to ask you to do the submissions.
Since this is a group effort, we can draft the proposal and pass it around (if
that is necessary) but have you actually submit it. I will let you know
when we are ready, unless of course, you refuse. In that case I will muddle
through it myself. I think we would have a better chance of success though
if you would do the submissions for us. Keep me posted.

>
>
>Leonard.
>
>--
>***********************************************************************
>| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
>| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
>*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************

Gregg.
[e-mail]


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 15:44:21 GMT
Lines: 37

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>>
>>Chris has a good idea, but is it workable?  Perhaps we could do something like
>>rec.arts.tv does, and ask folks to put abbreviations in their header lines
>>which would let us know what the general topic is.  How about this:
>>
>>NA  =  New Age stuff
>Kellie,
>  You have an idea which has more merit than you may realize. If the people
>in this group could agree on conventions such as these it would eliminate
>the need for killfiles as you could follow a discussion thread without fear
>of losing an item due to automatic killing. It would also be easy to scan
>for related topics too.
>                            Good luck,
>                               Jim
>======================================================================
>   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
>                    Internet:    [e-mail]
>       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
>======================================================================

Sorry, I disagree with this totally. If this newsgroup was young, maybe. From
the look of the possts I have been seeing lately, I don't think we could
get the crackpots to agree to this. Whether they are really disinformationists
or just people who like to post this stuff, they do not seem to be willing to
follow any regimented posting criteria. Changing AAV would be futile and
I really don't want to. I enjoy the stuff, just want to get a group that
can have a more professional profile based on facts (or closer to anyway).

Gregg.


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 16:33:05 GMT
Lines: 129

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Boy now you have gone and done it,  Gregg.  Here I had vowed to be nice on
>the net.  And you come on and make some stupid,  half witted statements
>like
>
>>alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.
>>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>>or government conspiracies.
>
>
>Let me share a few quote facts unquote with you.
>
>1.  The ETS you are interested in,  that abduct and eat or experiment on
>people make up less that .01 per cent of the ET population visiting this
>planet.

Did I mention abduct and eat? I think not. Sofar all the research I have done
has had nothing to do with humans being alien foodstuffs. As far as the
rest of #1, post it in alt.newage, or where someone cares. Certainly don't
post it to me because I don't care.

>
>2.  ETS in physical hardware, ships / bodies  that visit this planet make
>up less than 1 per cent of the ETs visiting this planet.
>

Oh yeah? It hasn't even been proven that ETs in physical hardware are even
here or visiting yet. Its suspicioned but not proven. Have the other 99% been
proven? Maybe I am working on the wrong end of the stick. Maybe I should start
my own HTC (HotTubClub).

>3.  You,  and everyone else have an ET aspect (portion)  of yourself that
>is very,  very interested in contacting said self.

Again, suspicioned, not confirmed.

>4.  You will meet many,  many more ETS breathing in a hot tub than reading
>a few books that were written to scare (entertainment for the unconscious)
>and make money.

What is your version of scientific research? Beleive and document? Entertainment
is what YOU are selling. I am looking for science not sewage. Besides, what
difference does it make to you? I am not trying to convert any of your HTC
members.

>5.  If you find the ETs you are looking for they are going to eat you or
>experiment on you.

No. There are defenses, hopefully. Besides, the experiments *MAY* be even
more benificial than hottub heavy breathing. The results aren't in yet.

>Definition:  Half Wit - Someone who has been programmed and conditioned
>since birth to use only their Left brain,  linear, logical thinking,  and
>to completely shut down,  deny, and NOT believe in their intuitive,
>creative, conceptual,  spiritual  thinking right brain.  Actually half wit
>is a complement it should be more accurately labeled 1/20th wit. As the
>left brain works with the primal,  survival brain and the right brain works
>with the higher consciousness brain.  Yeah,  there is a higher
>consciousnesses brain although it is atrophied in most college graduates.

Definition: Half Wit - Someone who has been swayed into beleiving since
birth to use only the Right brain, non-linear, illogical thinking, and
to completely shut down, deny and NOT believe in their ability to reason
and apply facts that have been proven sound for centuries. The term half-wit
is not a complement and only indicates that the recipient live in a fantasy
world. Yeah, there is a linear, logical and realistic brain. Its just dormant
in some half wits.

>>I am
>>sure) and we can have some real alien/ufo controversy talking without
>>some of the intrusions of this other (I will be polite) "stuff".
>
>Talking about???!!! Wendell Stevens is the worlds foremost UFO
>investigator.  He worked on project bluebook and continued investigating
>after he left the Air Force. He has written dozens of investigation reports
>in the form of books.  He does not publish the books for money,  he does
>1000-2000 copies to quote him  for his friends .  I have for over three
>years attempted to get a real discussion going on the most documented UFO
>Contact case on the planet.  I have Wendells permission to quote from any
>of his four books on the case plus I have the Billie Meier contact notes
>from Switzerland I would love to share in a discussion. The best half wits
>like you can come up with for a discussion is da, it can t be, they did not
>teach me that in school,  it can t be.

Get a clue here Don. I have only been on this earth for 30 years. What
I learned in school was only 1% of what I know and need to know to get
along in this world. The most discouraging part is that 90% of the stuff
I learned in school either doesn't apply or is totally wrong. The other
10% I could not do without. This is not my attitude. You must be thinking
of someone else. That is, if you are thinking at all. As far as youre
"most famous"  UFO researchers, I have never heard of them. I have never
seen any articles or books written by themm. Oh, I forgot, they don't do
this FOR PROFIT, sorry. Uh, how did you say they got to be "famouse"?

>>Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
>>their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
>>planet.
>
>Just hope your greys do not feed you to the lizzies (reptilians).

Sofar, there have been almost no reports in serious abduction or UFO
research about "lizzies". There are a few differences but the basic
alien is not like a reptile.

>Don Showen
>
>By the way I had the privledge of going on an abduction investigation case
>with Wendell.  A guy up by Sacramento was abducted about twenty years ago.
>The funny thing is that not only did the aliens program him to forget, when
>he got back the govt. picked him up and put him through a code named brain
>washing, forgetting technique that lasts for 15 or 20 years.
>
>
>How is this J.Winston not one swear word.  Did I do good? ;-)

Well, Don, we're all proud of you.

Gregg. (with salt and pepper or at least the lizzie version of same)


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10298 sci.skeptic:32660
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!think.com!ames!nsisrv!gemini!dsc
From: [e-mail] (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892)
Subject: Re: Face On Mars An Other Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: hoagland, book, monuments, mars
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA GSFC CDP VLBI
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 17:55:33 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed McCreary) writes:
>
>    V. DiPeitro and G. Molenaar, *Unusual Martian Surface Features*, Mars
>    Research, P.O. Box 284, Glen Dale, Maryland, USA, 1982. [Apparently the
>    first lengthy consideration of the Face published. Does anybody know
>    what it costs?]
>

I just checked with Vince Dipietro today.  The  book costs $18 by mail, $15
if you pick it up from him in person.

I add that Vince is a serious image processing expert, and has taken steps
to distance himself from the 'lunatic fringe' regarding the face.

Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re:  This was in my town's newspaper this morning
Date: 19 Oct 1992 19:15:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Yeah, it was in the Cleveland Plain Dealer this morning.  The title of
the article was:

"Confab tackles 1947 UFO tale"

It was picked up by the Plain Dealer from the Associated Press.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!news.Brown.EDU!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa440
From: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Meteor show due this week
Date: 19 Oct 1992 19:19:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Dale Wedge)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Cleveland Plain Dealer - From Wire Reports - October 19, 1992

The annual Orionids meteor shower is scheduled to shoot through the
Western Hemisphere this week, peaking at 3:00 p.m. Wednesday.  As-
tronomers say it should be visible anywhere skies are clear and
dark.

A meteor, or shooing star, is a piece of rock, left by a comet that
begins to burn and glow because of friction when it hits Earth's
atmosphere.

The Orionids shower results from Earth passing through particles left
by Halley's comet.  Another shower, the Draconids, made its annual
appearance on Oct. 9, alerting stargazers and UFO watchers up and down
the East Coast.  One meteor crashed into the trunk of a woman's car in
Peekskill, N.Y.

The Orionids will be around from Monday night through Thursday, said
astronomer Alan French of Scotia.  He suggested the best viewing
comes without the use of binoculars or telescopes.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 17:23:38 GMT
Lines: 102

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>Boy now you have gone and done it,  Gregg.  Here I had vowed to be nice on
>>the net.  And you come on and make some stupid,  half witted statements
>>like
>>
>>>alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.
>>>I am not interested in newage sewage, beings of light bullshit or
>>>hot-tub heavy breathing. I am interested in real investigation and
>>>informed opinions on the subject (that used to be at hand and is
>>>implied in the newsgroup title) having to do with UFO sightings and
>>>alien visitations, whether the latter means abductions, mutilations
>>>or government conspiracies.
>>
>>consciousnesses brain although it is atrophied in most college graduates.
>>
>
>I was bad John W. I swore. Sorry.
>
>What I think Gregg is interested in is the "facts". I can understand that.
>Thats what I'm interested in too.
>
>Maybe if he had gone to the Berkeley conference he could have seen how
>people who are abducted come back spewing "newage sewage". He obviously
>doesn't realize that we are all inseparably tied to the Creation in the end.
>That's why we're here.

I do realize this. More than you know.

>So anyone that can't force down a little bit of Newage sewage with his
>facts, isn't really interested in  UFO's; they're just interested in petting
>their egos or feeling knowledgable and superior.

Define "a little bit". Also define huge gobs and bushels full while you are
at it. Not intended as a flame. I just see too much crap in here for me
to swallow.

>These are the sort of quabbles that tend to divide the UFO community instead
>of unite it. I would like to see that not happen.

No, the newage stuff is what tends to divide the scientific community *FROM*
UFO research.

>There is no reason to have another news group.
>there are a lot of ways to improve this one.

Yes, but improve it for who?

>The reason I mentioned John is because I don't think you realize just how
>much experience he has in this area. He can tell you all you'd care to
>know about Adamski, or a host of other contactees, and UFO cases.
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^
Yeeeeooooowwwwweeee! XXX XXX XXX XXX XXX POISON XXX XXX XXX XXX XXX
Yuk! Spit! Bad Taste, Bad Tase, yukyukyukyukyukyuk. Anyone who has
done *ANY* reading on this subject knows that thesee people have done
more to hurt UFO research than Hitler did to start WWII!! Dammit, Jeff,
don't ever, ever mention that word to me again! As far as I am concerned
John is another one of these contactees. These people have no place in
UFO research. Well, maybe as a bad example of a hoaxter!


>And people like JW are a good resource for this group. He is trying to

Pardon me, but in my humble opinion, when it comes to UFO and alien contact
there are 3 kinds of people. Believers, Nonbelievers and skeptics. The
believers believe, the Nonbelievers don't and the skeptics claim the jury
is still out. My position: who cares. Fact is, there are to many people posting
"alien stuff"that BELEIVE IN EVERYTHING. Its just a bunch of horsemanure.

>show us all the possibilities, not prove they are facts. We should start
>using all our resources and drawing upon our collective conciousness instead
>of squabbling over philosophies. We all have a lot of room for growth here,
>and I'd rather not see anyone acting as if they know it all, cause we all know
>it ain't so, right Gregg?
>
>Jeff-
>

If you are implying that I have acted like a "know it all", I must appoligize.
I am quite new at this but there are a few rules that, whether a veteran or
a novice, you can pick up right away. Sorry if I sound like a know it all
when I state emphatically that 2+2=4 and it will always =4 regardless of what
some 30 year veteran mathamatician says. By the same token, the fact that
I need to roll up my pants when I get into this group. No, I don't have to
have ABSOLUTE PROOF of something to believe in it. I do, however, need a
at least a hint of a fact. This seems to be one of my shortcommings as you
and several others on this group seem to need nothing except the mention
of someone who said something to someone somewhere about something. Basically
its a hobby of alternate realities. Yes, Don, there goes that darn left
brain again. Thinking logically, I know. I will try to do better. My life is
quite exciting enough. I do not have to think up horsemanure to be creative.

G e t  A  L i f e !

Gregg.


--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 18:07:45 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jeff) writes:
>>Lets hear some more ideas.
>>
>>Gregg.
>
>How about getting a brain?
>
>
>
>The faq for this group is almost ready. I know, I wrote 40 pages of it.
>WE are working very hard to transform this group into something worthwhile to
>read, and your hosing it up. Moderate a new group; what are you going to call
>it? sci.UFO.gregg.censured.nazi?
>
>Oh great, unless you like my post, it ain't gonna show up. Just great.
>
>Jeff-

Well, Jeff, if YOU are transforming this group then I am destined to be
disapointed. Lets just call it. alt.newage.UFO.jeff.believe.believe.believe.
I have made the mistake several times of saying that "this" or "that" doesn't
belong in AAV. That was incorrect. I am now of the opinion that this group
should stay the same. I will be working from now on to create a new group.
Should this new group be to you liking, you will be welcome to post on
topic discussion. If not, lump it.

Gregg. (on a roll...)



--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Censor? Me?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 18:26:35 GMT
Lines: 34


Well, sofar I have been called many things. Some not so nice. Lets see if
I can remember:

Know-it-all (not the first time)
Half Wit    (the first time)
Brainless   (the first time)


Actually, the flames have been fun. I don't think I have posted this much in
one day. Anyway, I am writting to you this time to inform all interested
parties that a) I will not be responding to any more flames. So, have at it!
You won't be responded to and your keystrokes will echo into the bitbound
universe uninhibited. b) I have received some good advice from some educated
individuals about creating a new group with true UFO research as the subject.
Since I opened my big mouth a week or so ago I guess I have really been able
to see the black and white of it. So, what its going to end up is this:
My big mouth has gotten me the job of organizing this mess. The decision
is that I will not work to modify this group. Its fine the way it is. I like
it, regardless of the way I sound. I will be reading it from time to time.
I now have a fairly large bundle of e-mail addresses to support a new group.
It may take a while, but a new group will be created. Thanx to all that helped.

Thanx to the guy who said get a brain. I have and hope you have the
priviledge of having one someday too.

Bye.

Gregg.
--
Let the Greys come. If they are friendly, I will shake their hands and wax
their saucers. If they are not, I will do what I can to blow them off the
planet.
This .sig was prepared by a professional editor. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!boulder!ucsu!cubldr.colorado.edu!crago_l
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: a.a.v. BANNED? (was alt.alien.visitors)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 13
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 20:40:34 GMT
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Brad Pierce) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> writes in alt.conspiracy:
>>Can anybody tell me if the alt.alien.visitors newsgroup still exists?
>>It seems to have been cut-either here at the University of Illinois at
>>Chicago or it could be more widespread... ?? Please respond if you know.
>>Ethan Haslett
>>[e-mail]
>
I am informed by a friend at MIT that  alt.alien.visitors is not available
there either. The error message terms it *bogus newsgroup!*

Lou
>
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!vd!levels!9051467f
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Use of 2-mile gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Wild Child)
Date: 19 Oct 92 23:15:03 +0930
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of South Australia
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Keith Allan Schneider) writes:

>>Well, I am sure this 2-mile gun can shoot the earth junk out of earth
>>orbit, so I don't understand what the problem is.  There is PLENTY of
>>room in space so that the junk won't get in anyone's way! Plus you can
>>put some kind of contamination shielding around the junk if it is toxic.
>
> Would have to be a pretty powerful gun...
>
> keith

That's not the point: what would happen if for some unknown reason the
waste projectile didn't escape the earth, went into a degenerating orbit
broke up and sent radioactive waste all over the place?? It may not spread
over a wide enough area to be harmless...

Regardless if the *basic* requirements of building such a device
are present, it CANNOT be used till such times as failure would
become nearly never (just like recreational space travel - it WILL
come, and with any luck, in our lifetime).

--
John J McVey, Whyalla, Uni S. Australia    [e-mail]
Electronic Engineering student & Terror Tekkie!
    +-----------------------------------------------------+
     ---|  Obligatory disclaimer: UniSA hates my opinions...  |---
    +-----------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To:  alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 20:55:36 GMT
Lines: 57

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>) writes:

[...]

|> Now, here is my latest idea: before we even put keystroke one towards starting
|> a new group, lets get a FAQ together. Once that is done we will take the next
|> step. I think this will help. I also agree with all of you that say the
|> group needs moderated. I would like to contact the FAQ  writer and then


I don't agree at all that the new group should be moderated.

The hardest part of UFO research is deciding what is wheat and what
is chaff. I am not willing to let 1 person make those decisions and
censor what *they* think is crap out of the group.

Moderation is just not applicable to a newsgroup that will discuss a subject
like UFOs. What is going to get left out?

People who claim to have been abducted often claim a change in their
thinking towards new age, green, save-the-world kind of thoughts, why?
I would like to find out, would the moderator? David Jacobs implies that
the abductors place images of earth's destruction into the mind's of
abductees in order to observe their reactions. Is he on the right track or
are the abtuctors trying to perform a religious conversion of the subject?

I don't want one person having the power to prune postings from the
group. Besides, what if the moderator turns out to be a grey/CIA/NSA
plant? ;^)



|> get that person to send me the rough draft. Then, to all the serious people
|> that sent me e-mail, I would send the FAQ. They could electronically mark it
|> up and send it back to me. I would then send the responses to the FAQ writer.
|> Sound like a good idea? I still think a new group, moderated and FAQed, would
|> be easier to create and maintain than trying to change
|> alt.alien.visitors.crackpots.fantasy.


A new group will help enormously, but a moderated group will stifle communication
and filter out too much. I believe that a FAQ, a charter, and the existence
of alt.alien.visitors itself will ensure the usefulness of the new group.


|>
|> Lets hear some more ideas.
|>
|> Gregg.
|> [e-mail]
[<sig>]

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Mars Observer and "the face"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 17:46:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 12

According to [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith):
>Bill Higgins [writes]:
>>Those characters don't believe anybody who posts
>>from a government laboratory anyway. (-:
>
>Why should we? The truth has yet to be told. :-(

Okay, Rod, what's the truth about Cydonia that has been held up?  Or
are you now relinquishing your stance of "I'll wait for the evidence"?
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Xref: icaen sci.space:36093 sci.skeptic:32666 alt.alien.visitors:10308
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ogicse!news.u.washington.edu!raven.alaska.edu!acad2.alaska.edu!asljl
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 17:01:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad2.1992Oct19.130157.1
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Alaska
Lines: 404
Nntp-Posting-Host: acad2.alaska.edu

For all of you who have been waiting for a decent explanation of the
drive/laser system, from the Federation, Here you are:
Lady Rhavyn [e-mail], questions, ideas comments ?
1   Federation Science Academy;
     Engineering Research Text


A FEDERATION RESEARCH PROPOSAL:


By the synthesis of several fields of scientific and engineering
specialty, the production of a new form of space drive may be
possible.  This new drive will represent a literal quantum leap in
space propulsion technology, entailing as if does the reduction of
space drive components to a single 51 centimeter crystal.

This generator uses a block of semi-conductor material as
light-amplifying material, also called an Injection Laser.  A common
material used is Gallium Arsenide.  The Semi-Conductor material
consist of two layers that differ electrically.  Electron current
passes through the semi-conductor generates laser light along the
junction between the two layers.   The device, a quantum well diode
laser, is made of a layered alloy of gallium-aluminum-arsenide.  The
middle layer, which is the active layer, is made of nearly pure
gallium arsenide, and is only six-millionth of a millimeter thick.
The two layers on either side of it are 10 times as thick and contain
30 times the atoms of aluminum for every 70 atoms of gallium.  These
layers are in turn sandwiched between two still thicker outer layers,
containing 25 atoms of aluminum for every 75 atoms of gallium.  The
entire device is about 0.25 millimeters ( 0.01 inch ) square and one
thousandth of a milli-meter thick.   When a voltage is applied and
current flows, this radiative recombination has to be confined along
the junction plane and must be reflected by a parallel, partially
reflective surface so as to form a cavity.  These parallel mirrors are
readily obtained by cleaving along the natural cleavage planes of the
III - V compound semi-conductors.  The injection electrons and the
light must be confined to the same region so that they can interact to
enhance the stimulated emission.   To provide the carrier and light
confinement to the region of the p-n junction and obtain continuous
operation at room temperature, it is necessary to use a heterojunction
- i.e., the junction in a single crystal between two dissimilar
semi-conductors.  The most significant difference is the energy gap
and the refractive index.  A double hetero-structure made with
aluminum gallium arsenide ( Al-Ga-As ) and pure gallium arsenide and
indium phosphate gallium indium are now being used.   Al-Ga-As is used
to jacket, or clad the pure Ga-As core which has a smaller energy gap
than the two cladding layers.  Typical values for X in the formula Al
= x : Ga = -x : As, is x = 0.3.  This gallium Arsenide region with a
smaller energy gap is where the light with a smaller energy gap is
generated due to radiative recombination of the injected carriers;  it
is called the active region.   Other pairs of semi-conductors may be
used, but all require a smaller-energy-gap active region with
larger-energy-gap cladding layers.  Also to prevent non-radiative
recombination at the heterojunction interphases, the active layer and
the cladding layers must have the same lattice constant.   Electrical
current travels through the layers in the form of moving negatively
charged electrons and positively charged holes - These are empty
spaces around atoms in materials crystal structure where electrons
normally are situated.  Under the influence of an electric field, an
electron can jump from one hole to another.  The hole the electron
left behind can in turn be filled by a neighboring electron, which
leaves another hole.  As this process repeats itself, a hole in effect
" travels "  through the crystal.  The middle layer acts as a pit,
called a quantum well, which the electrons either overshoot or fall
into.   When an electron falls into a hole, the electron gives up
energy in the form of a photon - a bundle, or quantum or light.  A
photon vibrates with a frequency equal to its energy divided by a
number called Planck's constant.   According to the laws of quantum
mechanics that govern the emission of photons, electrons in an object
can emit photons that have only certain special amounts of energy.
Furthermore the number of possible amounts of energy, and the amounts
themselves, given up by electrons as they fall into an object depend
upon the size of the object.  The smaller the size the object, the
smaller the number of possible energies.  Because the laser's middle
layer is extremely small, when an electrical current flows across the
laser, the middle layer emits photons, each of which has the same
energy and frequency, corresponding to light of a deep red color.
The basic principle of the laser is that photons of this frequency
encourage electrons in the gallium arsenide to fall into the holes,
emitting still more photons of the same frequency.  As a result, it is
possible for a weak current to cause the middle layer to emit
tremendous numbers of photons with a single frequency.  When the
current rises above about 0.3 ampere, the device begins to emit laser
light.  The light output increases with further increases in the
current.  Only 1.5 amperes will produce 1/2 watt of light.   The
fundamental idea of this C.I.E. generator is that of the injection
laser.  However, that is merely the first stage.  In the second stage
the use of super conducting material and quasicrystals enhance and
increase the injection lasers efficiency to provide adequate
energy-to-thrust ratio for forward motion. The semiconducting material
is matrixed in a super conducting lattice at an atomic level.
Replacing the Oxygen-Copper pairings with Al-Ga-As.  A superconductor
conducts or carries electric current  ( a flow of electrons ) without
resistance.  In may 1987, some evidence of superconductivity in a
complex substance apparently occurred in microscopic  " sandwiches "
made up of insulated material located between layers of a
superconductor.  This is the same formation as that of a
semiconductor.   The new superconductors are ceramics - material that
are neither metals nor plastics.  The super conductors are brittle and
are difficult to make into films or wires suitable for technical
applications because its strength is proportional to the size of the
crystalline grains in the superconductor.  When researchers tried to
increase grain size, their brittle materials cracked.  Then silver,
which absorbs strain but doesn't interfere with superconductivity was
included in the formula of yttrium, barium, copper, and oxygen.
Including the silver produced large grain superconductors, allowing a
4.5 pound tank of water, holding a living goldfish, to be levitated
atop a ring magnet.   The copper and oxygen atoms in these materials
are staked in flat layers  ( known as planes in geometry ).  In each
" building block "  of the crystal lattice, copper an oxygen form one
or more layers, while the other elements make up the remainder of the
block.  The blocks are stacked one upon another like a deck of cards
to fill out the crystal.   The critical temperature seems to depend
upon the number of copper-and-oxygen layers per block - the more of
these layers , the higher the critical temperature.  The material with
a critical temperature of -148 degrees C has three consecutive layers
made of copper and oxygen and atoms in each block.   In 1980, they
imposed a strong magnetic field perpendicular to a very thin
conducting layer in an electronic device known as a
semiconductor-insulator junction.  This caused a current to flow
through the layer.  Surprisingly, they found that the strength of the
resulting electrical field was no longer simply proportional to the
magnetic field and current, but increased by quanta, or steps, as the
magnetic field increased.  Successive steps did not depend on the
nature of the specific conducting material.  Rather, the steps were
always at an exact or whole-number multiple of the current times the
square of the charge of electrons divided by Planck's constant.   The
presence of moving magnetic fields can be shown by the Meissner
effect, the rejection of a magnetic field by a superconductor that's
cooled below critical temperature.  Magnetic Field;   a Region in the
neighborhood of a magnet, electric current or changing electric field
in which magnetic forces are observable.  Magnetic fields force moving
electrical charged particles in a circular or helical path.  The
magnetic force on a moving charge is exerted in a direction at a right
angle to the plane formed by the direction of its velocity and the
direction of the surrounding magnetic field.   The Meissner effect
occurs because the magnetic field of the permanent magnet causes super
conducting currents to flow on the surface of the pellet.  These
currents produce a magnetic field in the direction opposite of that of
the permanent magnet's field.  The portion of the superconductor's
field inside the superconductor has exactly the same strength as the
portion of the magnet's field extending inside the superconductor.  So
the magnet's internal field is canceled out.  But the magnet's
external field exerts a repelling force on the super conducting
current carriers ( electrons or holes ) flowing on the surface of the
pellet, causing the pellet to remain suspended.  When a magnetic
material is cooled in an outside magnetic field of constant direction,
the small regions quickly grow into large domains in which the atomic
magnets are aligned with the outside field.   Scientist have found
that certain impurities in the crystal structure of magnetic materials
make boundary motion more difficult.      The field inside a type II
material became concentrated in various positions that depend upon the
crystal structure of the particular superconductor.  Certain
irregularities in the shape of the superconductors crystal structure
and certain impurities ( atoms that normally are not present in the
materials ) can  " pin down "  these field concentrations.   In a
metal of alloy type II superconductor, movement of these magnetic
field concentrations - know as fluxcreep - creates some electrical
resistance, but not enough to prevent these materials from being
useful for a variety of super conducting applications.  As the
temperature increases, atoms in the super conducting material vibrate
more and more rapidly, increasing flux creep.  The moving field
concentrations interfere with electrons or holes forming the super
conducting current, thereby raising resistance.   That flux creep can
be exceptionally strong in ceramic superconductors that are made up of
the chemical elements yttrium, barium, copper, and oxygen.     The
amount of current that can pass through a high-temperature
superconductor is limited by the behavior of a three-dimensional
magnetic structure called a flux lattice.  When a ceramic
superconductor is placed in a magnetic field, the field forms
intermeshing, string-like concentrations of magnetism called fluxiods.
An electric current can move fluxiods about and thus transfer some of
the current's energy to the superconductor.  This causes the
superconductor to lose its zero electrical resistance.  The higher the
temperature at which the superconductor operates, the looser the
lattice becomes, and so the easier it becomes for current to move
fluxiods about - increasing the material's resistance.   To prevent
lattices from loosening researchers took advantage of a characteristic
of certain conventional superconductors.  In those materials, fluxoids
can be immobilized, or  " pinned down, "  by defects in the crystal of
the material.   The current density  of the altered crystalline
material was about 10 times that of the material without the defects (
Current density is the amount of current flowing through a given
cross-sectional area of a material.).   A technique for altering the
crystal structure of a high temperature superconductor by introducing
crystal defects.  The researchers measured the density of a current
flowing through a crystal made up of yttrium, barium, copper, and
oxygen.  Then they bombarded the crystal with neutrons, creating
defects every much like cracks in a brick wall.  When they again
passed a current through the crystal, the fluxiods stuck to the
defects and did not interfere with the currents.  As a result, the
current density increased sharply to an amount that would make these
materials useful for magnets.   Another way of dealing with this
problem would be the use of quasicrystals.  A quasicrystal is a
material which solidified into a crystal like object with a unit cell
that could not possibly repeat itself in a periodic fashion.
Researchers wondered how the object which came to be known as a
quasi-crystal, could exist.  The explanation came from an unexpected
source.  In the mid-1970's, theoretical physicist Roger Penrose
developed a geometric structure comparable to sets of tiles of two
different shapes that cover a floor in only non-periodic arrangements
- that is, without regular distances between identical tiles pointed
in the same direction. Penrose's discovery in plane geometry could be
applied to solid geometry.   Unit cells in the shape of an iconahedron
( a solid with 20 triangular faces ) could combine non-periodically to
form a quasi-crystal.  The ordering of the unit cells would be
quasi-periodical - that is, distances between unit cells oriented in
the same direction would repeat in a pattern, but not a periodic
pattern.  Instead the distances would change according to the
Fibonacci sequence ( the continuous series of numbers beginning
1,1,2,3,5, in which the first two numbers is the sum of the preceding
two numbers ).  In October 1985, five researchers obtained
quasi-crystals by bombarding a thin film of aluminum and manganese
with a beam of xenon ions ( charged atoms ).  The bombardment with
ions rearranged atoms in the alloy to form a quasi-crystal. From the
previous information is possible to formulate a synthesis of the
various sciences described.   A layered super conducting matrix of
injection laser material Al-Ga-As, is laid down on normal
semiconducting state. Then a quasicrystal superconductor, is overlaid
as an insulating layer and heterojunctioned to the plane of the
Al-Ga-As, forming the quantum well where the electron-photon
conversion takes place.  By using the quasicrystal structure to pin
down the magnetic fields, massive electric fields will be generated at
right angles to the original electron current path.   These electric
fields will act to " push "  the electrons in the alternative
junctions.  In turn these electron currents will produce massive
electric fields in the original current pathways.  This double-push
effect will increase electron-photon conversion.   Throughout the more
than 50 years of the particle-accelerator history, the strong electric
fields that  " push "  the particles have always been provided by
powerful radio waves, far stronger electric fields are present in the
light waves produced by lasers, however.  A light beam, like a radio
beam consist of an electric field and a magnetic field.  Strong
electric fields are also found in plasmas - gases made up of atomic
nuclei and independent electrons.   Experiments beginning in 1983
focused intense flashes of laser light on an are of less than 1 square
millimeter ( 0.0015 square inch ).  Each flash lasted only
ten-trillionth of a second, but for that instant the flash maintained
electric fields thousands of times more powerful than those commonly
used in particle accelerators.  Fields this strong generate forces as
powerful as those that hold atoms together.  They can play havoc with
any atoms that falls within their grip.  Energy flows rapidly into the
atoms, causing it to spew forth electrons.  In a single laser flash,
an atom may absorb as many as 100 photons and eject as many as ten
electrons.  Ordinarily, an atom absorbs one at a time and it is
extremely difficult to remove several electrons from one atom in a
single step.   By this method, the quantum effect of electron-photon
conversion is amplified, producing a sub-quantum field transfer effect
of near 70-to-80% efficiency.  By exponential expansion, the crystal
electric-magnetic fields should reach a strong-force counter reaction
by the time the electron-current flow has reached the end of the
crystal.   The end product of this action should be an quanta level
release burst of energy along most known frequencies of the
electromagnetic wave-band.    ( Harnessed nuclear thrust.)

    The manufacturing of a new, ultra efficient space drive for the
twenty first century is fundamentally within the technological
capabilities of todayUs industrialized nations.  The manufacturing
equipment is already in place.  Most of the engineering is on-shelf.
The only problems will be the combination of these technologies to
create the desired product.   Much like EdisonUs inventions involved
little to no new technology or resources.  This device is readily
manufacturable with little to no new Scientific or Engineering art.
What is needed for the development and creation of just such a space
drive is the following:

        1.)   A semi-conductor Processing/manufacturing lab.
        2.)   A set of matched, electro-para-magnetic bottles.
        3.)   Ultra sonic containment and oscillation equipment.
        4.)   Heating and cooling elements with a +/- 1700 range
        5.)   computer/robotics equipment.


   To manufacture the Drive crystal, a Semi-conducting manufacturing
chamber must be first modified to handle several other operations.
First, a ceramic interior shielding must be added to allow the chamber
to reach upward of 1700 degree Fahrenheit temperatures.   Second,
ultra-sonic containment equipment must be installed on the spraying
platform.  The sound beams must have a fifty percent overlap capacity,
with a coverage of the entire area to be effected.   Third,
super-conducting electro-magnets with a hundred percent overlap and
matched magnetic domains must be installed around the spray area.
Ultra sonic fields must be set up to insure no substance adheres tot
he magnetos and corrupts the field lines.   Third, the chamber has to
be made air and vacuum tight.  This will mean the inclusion of
computer controlled robot arms.  Two sets per-wall with a duo set of
television and spectrographic laser analyzers on at least one.   With
this set up in place the manufacturing is ready to take place.  First,
establish as single, harmonious magnetic field around the work area.
This will act as the aligning field for the magnetic domains forming
in the drive crystal.  This in effect will produce a single magnetic
spin direction in the whole unit.   After this is completed, the next
phase is to introduce a fifty two ( 52 ) centimeter piece of silicon
into the chamber.  This is then placed in the work area.   The surface
of the strip is rough, so it's are polished with abrasive liquids.
Then the strip is exposed to oxygen in an oven, causing a hard layer
of silicon dioxide to form on the surface.  Silicon dioxide is an
insulator, a material that does not conduct electricity.  Finally, the
surface receives a coating of a light-sensitive chemical.  A mask and
strip are placed in a machine which shines a light through the
stencil-like mask, imprinting an exact duplicate of the circuit
patterns onto the strip's surface.  This is used to create the current
pathways which will be the fundamental focus of the driveUs
operations.   Next, chemical's etch ( eat away ) the unexposed
portions of the strip surface, leaving a silicon dioxide replica of
the desired circuit patterns.   Other substances are then deposited on
the strip in various ways.  Maintaining the strong magnetic bottle,
the ultra-sonic fields are now activated to insure that the elements
settling onto the strip settle in a quasi-crystal formation.  That is
the unit cells would be quasi-periodical - distances between unit
cells oriented in the same direction would repeat in a pattern, but
not a periodic pattern.  Instead the distances would change according
to the Fibonacci sequence ( the continuous series of numbers beginning
1,1,2,3,5, in which the first two numbers is the sum of the preceding
two numbers ).  With this as a first stage, the oven is now
re-pressurized, to 10,000 psi and a gas consisting of 2 percent Iron,
3 percent Bismuth, 4 percent Copper, and 5 percent Aluminum Oxide 5
percent Silver is pumped into the heated chamber.  The composite gas
enters the areas of exposed silicon and silicon dioxide and insert
themselves into the silicon crystal, forming sectors that will act as
circuit parts.  The gas is allowed to form heavy, quasi crystals over
the surface of the strip.  Maintaining a constant temperature and
pressure for 18 -to- 20 hours, the gas is continuously re-circulated
into the chamber until it adheres to the wafer.  After 20 hours, the
temperature is slowly reduced, but the pressure remains constant.  The
new quasicrystal strip is allowed to slowly cool for the next 7 -to-
10 days.  After which the process starts all over again.  A new
silicon strip with new circuit designs are placed in the oven, over
the crystals, and then re-pressurized and heated.  More composite gas
is added, until both wafers are overgrown and joined together.
Repeating such steps - Coating, mask flashing, etching, and diffusion
- creates multiple layers.




C.I.E. Drive Research Questions -

1.)   If a conversion ratio of 1.5 Amperes produce 1/2 a watt of light
(  1.5a=1/2w )  in a device 0.25 millimeters long, what will the
wattage output be at the end of a device 51 centimeters long?

 2.)   If an electric charge in motion creates a magnetic spin field,
then the magnetic charge of a crystal-semiconductor laser of 51
centimeters might produce a magnetic field strengthening in density
every half millimeter.  What would the magnetic field strength be by
51 centimeters.

3.)  Could increasing magnetic compression of the molecular structure
create resonance waves in the lattice causing instability and
collapse?

4.)   Could the use of quasi-crystal tiling, anchor the magnetic spin
charges and stabilize the magnetic compression problem?

5.)   Could the use of quasi-crystal tiling be as atomic level
switching nodes?

6.)   If atomic level switching is possible, could the bi-level
lattice structure be paralleled as a combined computer system and
drive unit?   ( Main junction planes used as drive pathways.
Vertical/diagonal tiling junctions used as computer
switching/feedback.)

7.)  Combining semiconducting/piezoelectric lattice structures with
super conducting/quasi-crystal ceramic tiling junctions in a
north/front - south/back hyper-magnetic domain;  what will be the
effect on piezoelectric compression?

8.)   Semiconductors use level 2,3,4,5, and 6 combined with columns 2,
3, 4, 5, and 6  would it be feasible to in-phase palladium for Yttrium
in the super conducting matrix/Germanium in the semiconducting matrix,
stabilizing the semiconducting lattice on an electron hole structure,
allowing the excess electrons to be transferred to the hetero-junction
planes, increasing the laser output?

9.)   Experiments in 1981 proved that intense, coherent light flashes
in an area of less then 1 millimeter lasted only ten-trillionth of a
second produced electric fields thousands of times more powerful then
those used in particle accelerators;  Combined with the possible
hyper-magnetic fields generated by electric fields in motion, what
would the classification of the field generated after the process has
reached the theoretical 51 centimeters?

10.)   If the proposed primary purpose ( drive unit ) is proven
faulty, can  this design be a: A.)      Optical computer B.)       High
energy laser weapon.   C.)    Electron laser D.)     Ion generator
E.)     Magnetic resonator focus

11.)   Supposing a combined synthesis is possible.  What would
possible side-effect energy fields might be observed?

12.)   No weak-force activity has been observed in any of the separate
component operations.  Could this combined matrix generate weak-force
radiation harmful to biological life?

13.)  If weak-force is observed, what would the effects of the decay
be on the internal structure.

14.)   If this matrix can generate a strong field action, would it be
possible to match resonating actions with a second matrix and
construct a heterodyned field charge at a distance from the unit?


Xref: icaen alt.alien.visitors:10309 sci.skeptic:32667
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Face On Mars An Other Other Time
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: hoagland, book, monuments, mars
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 21:33:45 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ed McCreary) writes:
|> >
|> >    V. DiPeitro and G. Molenaar, *Unusual Martian Surface Features*, Mars
|> >    Research, P.O. Box 284, Glen Dale, Maryland, USA, 1982. [Apparently the
|> >    first lengthy consideration of the Face published. Does anybody know
|> >    what it costs?]
|> >
|>
|> I just checked with Vince Dipietro today.  The  book costs $18 by mail, $15
|> if you pick it up from him in person.
|>
|> I add that Vince is a serious image processing expert, and has taken steps
|> to distance himself from the 'lunatic fringe' regarding the face.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "taken steps"?  No flame
intended, it's just an awfully open phrase....

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Xref: icaen sci.space:36094 sci.skeptic:32669 alt.alien.visitors:10310
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.centerline.com!noc.near.net!news.Brown.EDU!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1992 22:09:14 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> For all of you who have been waiting for a decent explanation of the
|> drive/laser system, from the Federation, Here you are:
|> Lady Rhavyn [e-mail], questions, ideas comments ?
|> 1   Federation Science Academy;
|>      Engineering Research Text

Perhaps I missed something.  Just what the heck is this all about?
Who is "The Federation"?  What is "the drive/laser system" and what
is it for?

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!west.West.Sun.COM!male.EBay.Sun.COM!tinkerbell!kathieg
From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 21:24:46 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 37
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com


concerning the person who wrote the above strange comment, all i can say is
that:

a) it's "you're", not "your"
b) the person he/she was responding to is a woman, therefore the generic
"buddy" doesn't apply.
c) look who this person's hero is.

my $.02,

Jude :)


Your $.02 is fine.  I don't have a problem with that.  What I have a problem to
is people who will not use their name, they use initials to start off with.

How was I to know, the person who I was responding to was a woman.  Initials do
not state male or female.

I apologize for your instead of you're, but I really don't understand your

c)  look who this person's hero is?  How can look to see who the person's
    hero is, if I don't know who the person is to begin with?

I am not claiming to see something I can not see.  I am not saying you have to
believe me.  But don't put me down, because I can see and you can not.

My imagination is fine, and I really didn't like being told I had a run away
imagination just because I can see aura's.  That was the point I was trying to
point out.

I do use my name, and I am proud of what I can see and who I am.

Thank you,

Kathie  ;.)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!west.West.Sun.COM!male.EBay.Sun.COM!tinkerbell!kathieg
From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: bigfoot spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 21:28:19 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 22
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Subject: Big Foot. Part 2.
>   We left our psychic saying to the Big Foot, big lug I couldn't hurt
    you if I tried (or something like that)...  The BF then said that
    every time he comes in contact with one of our kind they try to
    hurt him...  a man was after a deer and saw me. It scared him very
    much and he shot me with his larger rifle I haven't attempted to
    make any contact with your type of people until I came in contact
    with this nice man who has given me food.  That' about all of the
    story that Merele told me.

>Isn't there a comedy soap on TV with this as the plot!

>Tony Beaumont



Tony, I was wondering why do you read this news net?  Do you believe or do you
not believe?  To me that is the question.

Kathie  ;.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: belgufo.lzh, part 2/2 Belgian_UFO_JPEG_pics
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 22:47:11 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.binaries.pictures.d
Lines: 862


Hi,
this is a "real" picture of the "Belgian UFO" which was sighted by a
few thousand people over Belgia in 1989. I digitized it from a NTSC
videotape I did get from a friend in the USA. It was shown there in a
TV-series: Unsolved mysteries.

This picture was made from someone, who had a camera handy when this
triangle object happened to pass by.

Please mail me your view on it.

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Ingenierbuero Gatz & Hartmann.
email to:  [e-mail]



#!/bin/sh
#
# This is a self-extracting shell archive of the binary file "belgufo.lzh".
# Created on Sun Oct 18 22:47:07 MET 1992 by post-bin, revision 2.2.
#
# To decode with /bin/sh, remove everything before the /bin/sh and feed
# each piece as input to /bin/sh.  When all the pieces have been
# processed, the archive will automatically concatenate the pieces and
# uudecode them to produce belgufo.lzh.  If successful, it will remove all
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#
# If you do not have /bin/sh or unix, you may decode by removing
# everthing before/after the lines beginning with the word BEGIN/END,
# respectively, in each piece.  Then concatenate the pieces in the proper
# order and uudecode.
#
part=2
pfile=belgufo.lz
file=belgufo.lzh
psize=49058
sed -e '/^BEGIN/d' -e '/^END/d' << \End_of_Section > $pfile.$part
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end
END-------------- belgufo.lzh ------------ part 2/2 ---
End_of_Section
size=`wc -c $pfile.$part | awk '{ print $1 }'`
if [ $size != $psize ]; then
    echo Length mismatch for uuencoded part $part \($size != $psize\).
    exit 1
fi
echo $file, part $part extracted.

if [ `echo $pfile.[0-9]* | wc -w` = 2 ]; then
    echo All uuencoded parts of $file extracted, uudecoding...
    cat $pfile.* | uudecode
    if [ $? -gt 0 ]; then
    echo Error encountered when uudecoding pieces...
    exit 1
    fi

    echo $file successfully uudecoded.  Removing uuencoded pieces.
    rm $pfile.[0-9]*
fi
exit 0
--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!news.belwue.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: belgufo.lzh, part 1/2 Belgian_UFO_JPEG_pics
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 22:45:21 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.binaries.pictures.d
Lines: 1068


Hi,
this is a "real" picture of the "Belgian UFO" which was sighted by a
few thousand people over Belgia in 1989. I digitized it from a NTSC
videotape I did get from a friend in the USA. It was shown there in a
TV-series: Unsolved mysteries.

This picture was made from someone, who had a camera handy when this
triangle object happened to pass by.

Please mail me your view on it.

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann, c/o Ingenierbuero Gatz & Hartmann.
email to:  [e-mail]



#!/bin/sh
#
# This is a self-extracting shell archive of the binary file "belgufo.lzh".
# Created on Sun Oct 18 22:45:13 MET 1992 by post-bin, revision 2.2.
#
# To decode with /bin/sh, remove everything before the /bin/sh and feed
# each piece as input to /bin/sh.  When all the pieces have been
# processed, the archive will automatically concatenate the pieces and
# uudecode them to produce belgufo.lzh.  If successful, it will remove all
# uuencoded pieces.  Alternatively, the archive(s) may be processed with
# no editing by the unshar program.
#
# If you do not have /bin/sh or unix, you may decode by removing
# everthing before/after the lines beginning with the word BEGIN/END,
# respectively, in each piece.  Then concatenate the pieces in the proper
# order and uudecode.
#
part=1
pfile=belgufo.lz
file=belgufo.lzh
psize=61960
sed -e '/^BEGIN/d' -e '/^END/d' << \End_of_Section > $pfile.$part
BEGIN------------ belgufo.lzh ------------ part 1/2 ---
begin 600 belgufo.lzh
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M8M!5HNN;;E8*;F.2>PE]PRH+3V2^-0!;TW%Y 9^-Z#Y]U>3]N2KVN*2V;4SX
ML=K=#X/H*I+LGFKL)*TX@:E)ZAI+2.^?957*#9IW!N734\LN)45/+C,R.$L(
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M<]R^2R,9"RZ<!:C&\=!Q "1XE+_OFO]-4%AE<UTI4\+F@W_3?A9$E\>>.W_-
M)8$,9O4W)=,(VOLM[]&&YU?P^5SCH\;S*V,V3#H- ND8Q9<5TN^];M[]I]B*
MZL)>Q_;PX\ERH#&N^"78M+\4K0G^28[^4&?3WCB;]Z4XN/<%DA]5JAUE[61)
MRV?<=!O]; [_@1[ILM]2'OW/1DYOM=6A-/5MSR]R0!!=\"+>N?K NEYC'>@A
END-------------- belgufo.lzh ------------ part 1/2 ---
End_of_Section
size=`wc -c $pfile.$part | awk '{ print $1 }'`
if [ $size != $psize ]; then
    echo Length mismatch for uuencoded part $part \($size != $psize\).
    exit 1
fi
echo $file, part $part extracted.

if [ `echo $pfile.[0-9]* | wc -w` = 2 ]; then
    echo All uuencoded parts of $file extracted, uudecoding...
    cat $pfile.* | uudecode
    if [ $? -gt 0 ]; then
    echo Error encountered when uudecoding pieces...
    exit 1
    fi

    echo $file successfully uudecoded.  Removing uuencoded pieces.
    rm $pfile.[0-9]*
fi
exit 0
--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12214 alt.alien.visitors:10315 alt.religion.kibology:4213
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 16:48:41 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear BF Watchers: I did enjoy that story about the bear. It reminds me
of the old song and poem of The Preacher and the Bear.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 17:15:30 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

By George Kathie I think you are getting the point. Maybe it's not
as simple as I make it sound but we're getting in the ball park.
John Winston
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Aliens
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 17:17:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Kathie your computer must have caught the dribbles from my computer.
There is a lot of that going around you know.
John Winston.
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Good Job!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 17:25:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Gary it seemed that you had a good time at the convention.  It seems
to me that John Lears information is true. I don't know whether
Stan Freedman is for real or not even though I know him personally.
John Winston
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Mars Observer and "the face"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 01:09:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Lines: 61
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

Chip,

 According to [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith):
>Bill Higgins [writes]:
>>Those characters don't believe anybody who posts
>>from a government laboratory anyway. (-:
>
>Why should we? The truth has yet to be told. :-(

>>Okay, Rod, what's the truth about Cydonia that has been held up?  Or
>>are you now relinquishing your stance of "I'll wait for the evidence"?

Mabye I should be a little more specific about what I am referring to. I
mean the Jesse Marcels of the world, who come forward & state that the US
government
is a bunch of bold face liars. J Allen Hynek stated somthing very similar.
He said , "We [BLUEBOOK] were told to keep the public from becoming
hysterical."
" They [the US Airforce]] would do cartwheels to publisize a case that was
found to be a misidentification & would playdown,keep quite about something
they could not or would not explain. This is deception plain & simple. Why
should we believe anything they say? ALWAYS QUESTION AUTHORITY!

I was not referring to the Mars/Cydonia area specifically. Is this clear ?
I was making a general statement on how I feel we the public have been
treated in the past by the US intelligence community & their
Scientists/Puppets/On the payroll/scared of what might happen to their
family /etc./etc./etc..............

We have been fed a line of crap three light years wide & are expected to
just swallow.......NOT! Look at Watergate/Iran-Contra/S&L
Scandel...........Etc.....
They are so honest,They would not tell any lies to protect themselves. HA!
These are just a few major ones that we know about. We haven't even
scratched the surface of what lies beneath.

Why are the Donald Keyhoes, J Allen Hyneks, Jesse Marcels, Deke Slaytons
etc. written off in these  equations. People in the know who have played
the game directly, on the other side of the fence. They all say similar
things.

 I work with a guy who had been in the military who has seen UFOS while on
duty. Guess what.....Immediate debriefing & made to swear an oath of serecy
for life! This poor old guy is still in fear of what they might do to
him........he has not been in the military for over 30 years. He thinks
that what he has told me already is too much. Ahem....should stop rambling
now. Oh well I hope I made my point.

Rod




--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!male.EBay.Sun.COM!tinkerbell!kathieg
From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 00:23:45 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com


Kal writes and says,

>I urge you to try this, if
>you really think you can see the auras.

>A opaque partition is set up.

Who said that aura's could be seen through something?

I am stating that I can see them around a person, not through anything.  I am not
superwoman with X-ray eyes.

Who thought this idea up?  This sounds like a joke.


>I have seen (a tape of) a woman breaking down in tears
>when she miserably failed the test.

 I feel sorry for the woman who thought she could see through the opaque partition.
 I know I can't see through a partition.

>If you do better than random chance,
>then you've proved your ability.

Who says this is the way to prove I can see auras?


Sorry, but it sounds to me like a bunch of people were really being mean.

Kathie  ;.)
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news.dell.com!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!male.EBay.Sun.COM!tinkerbell!kathieg
From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 00:41:15 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 67
NNTP-Posting-Host: tinkerbell.ebay.sun.com

JM

Here is the best I can do for the questions you have asked.  Sorry for not answering
sooner, but I do have a job to do.  ;.)


>Is it uniform around the body ? can you see it better under certain lighting >conditions

I would say, I can see it better when I have a solid white back ground.  I was
at the park the other day, and I tryed to look at someones aura, but the back
ground was a wall of grainy bricks.  I noticed that seeing an aura around people
with a grainy background is a lot harder.

Yes, the first level is uniform.

>Can you see it at night ? Can you see through the aura ?
>Do you always see it, or do you trigger your "vision" at will

Both of these are really good questions.  Some nights when I am really full
of energy, yes I can see in the dark how long my aura shoots out of my fingers.

I try not to look at everyones aura, but yes, it is always there.  I enjoy watching
speakers talk.  You can tell by looking at their aura if they really believe in what
they are saying or not.

>Spirit guide ? definition please ? How do you know what it is ???

A spirit guide, or angle as some might call it.  A spirit that guides you down the
path of life.  I can see them.  They look like another person standing by the
person I am viewing.


>You say the aura depends on the person feelings. How do you know
>that ? Can you "guess" a correspondance between the characteristics
>of the aura and the feelings/health/whatever of the person ?
>id you try to guess accuratly the mood of someone based on your
>observation ?

We will start with the color Red.  It is the lowest of the colors.  I really don't
know all the meanings of the colors, but they go like this.

Red, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, gold and white.

White is the best color you can find.  It is not around everyone.  You must be a
very spiritual person.  I haven't seen to many white people.  But a few.

I have seen Green, usually means the person is healing something in their body.

Blue means they feel great!  Purple is a color I love, and it has to do with
being intune with one's self, and knowing where one is going.  No hate is within
this person.

I don't know about gold, only heard a few things.  White is the purest of spirits.

Yellow is when you are jealous.  Red is when you are angry.  I don't know about
Orange.

You can tell if a person is really bad, their aura is black, or murky brown.  YUCK!

Not a nice color to see.

When a person is ill, you will see in their aura, a sick looking color, and it is
usally around the area that is ill.

Hope this helps, if not, ask some more.

Kathie  ;.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!ames!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 04:53:02 GMT
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>Kal writes and says,
>
>>I urge you to try this, if
>>you really think you can see the auras.
>
>>A opaque partition is set up.
>
>Who said that aura's could be seen through something?
>
>I am stating that I can see them around a person, not through anything.
>I am not superwoman with X-ray eyes.
>
>Who thought this idea up?  This sounds like a joke.

Kathy, the auras extend -around- the person, right? The opaque barrier
should block out just the person, it should extend just over the top of their
head, so their bodies cannot be seen. But the aura is said to extend
farther than that, so the aura that extends beyond the tops of their
heads -should- be visible, right?

It's not a joke, and it is a valid test.

>
>>I have seen (a tape of) a woman breaking down in tears
>>when she miserably failed the test.
>
> I feel sorry for the woman who thought she could see through the opaque
> partition. I know I can't see through a partition.

I hope you understand the nature of the test a little better now.

>>If you do better than random chance, then you've proved your ability.
>
>Who says this is the way to prove I can see auras?
>
>Sorry, but it sounds to me like a bunch of people were really being mean.

Not so, the persons being tested agreed to the test after a careful
explanation. They thought they should have been able to see the auras
as well. They understood exactly how the test worked, and could have
refused to take the test if they thought it unreasonable or impossible.

>Kathie  ;.)

Rich

[e-mail]


Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!soda.berkeley.edu!sfd
From: [e-mail] (Scott Drellishak)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ezekiel's Space Ship
Date: 20 Oct 1992 08:07:25 GMT
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
)...I asked him if he was Ezekiel and he said that he
)preferred not to bask in the effulugence of a previous incarnation.
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's disgusting.  Anyway, *I* was Ezekiel in a previous life, so
this guy was full of shit.  Or is that what "bask in the effulugence"
means?
--
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Scott Drellishak   [e-mail]                          |
|                "Spumco ... the Danes call it quality."                   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12218 alt.alien.visitors:10324 sci.skeptic:32698
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!revcan!micor!uuisis!bbs
From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 07:19:39 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 44

>[e-mail] writes:

> The military then came in and
> ordered us out of the area. The three were small, fragile and had no hair.
> Their noses didn't protrude and they didn't have thumbs or fingernails.
>   So that's all folks. We shall see what we shall see.
> John Winston
>

You know folks, that 'the military' consists of things like army, navy,
air force. And within those division are things like REGIMENTS and each
one has a unique insignia clealy visible on the uniform and each one of
those consists of MEN (flesh and blood homo sapiens) and each one of
those has a COMMANDER or or a Colonel who actually has a name, identity
and phone number and like that.

Ok, I confess that I spent some time as a soldier. (Canadian Armed
Forces, Royal Hamilton Light Infantry - 1967) But really "the military"
just doesn't cut it. "The military" is just a bunch of people with names
and identies and phone numbers.

So *which military*? Which unit of what military? What regiment? Who is
the Colonel? What is his phone number? Where is there base? Where do the
ratings hang out (the one's who will talk after a couple of beers even
if the Colonel won't talk)??

C'mon. This is EARTH! THE MILITARY consists of MEN. Who are people. Who
will talk.

Who? Where? When? Why?

C'mon. Some useful details please. What bloody regiment gave you these
'orders' and on whose authority? And why the hell did you obey these
orders?

In the absence of a declaration of martial law by the civil authority a
solier's got no more authority to order you to do anything than a prairie
dog has, ya know?!?!? He may have a gun but it's not likely that he'll
shoot you :-).

What gives?

=Doug

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12219 alt.alien.visitors:10325 alt.religion.kibology:4221
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!revcan!micor!uuisis!bbs
From: [e-mail] (Doug Thompson)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 06:59:49 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 25

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear Big Foot Smellers: Please don't quote me on some of this information.

OK

> This is Stan's opinion.

Who is Stan?

> I don't know whether we have 18 planets in our
> solar system and some of the male Big Foot seem to like our females.

Hmmm. What has the number of planets got to do with horney bigfoots
(bigfeet?).

But you know John, I like some of 'our females' too. Does this
characterize a fraternity beteen me and big foot? And is this sort of a
hormonal symmetry or does it operate in the spiritual realm too?

Inquiring minds (under the shimmering of the northern lights) want to
know.

=Doug

Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12220 alt.alien.visitors:10326 sci.skeptic:32699
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 06:33:43 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 12

Dear People That On Earth Do Dwell: A person over in Switzerland has
ask me to announce the OOBE train one day ahead of time, so today is
tuesday and tomorrow in wednesday the day we take. I have been told
that Switzerland is GMT plus one hour so when it's 11 am GMT it's
10 am in Switzerland. Would someone please tell me what the time is
in Calif. in relation to GMT. The time here is going to fall back
one hour at the end of Oct.  My thanks goes out to the person who
figured out the saying that I was looking for that was said along
with the song Age of Aquarius. I think it would be nice if we would
go see a person by the name of Monka on Mars on our OOBE train this
week and for the next two weeks. I'll try to send more information later.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12221 alt.alien.visitors:10327
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 06:39:07 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: It's tuesday and maybe I will  next talk about how
Big Foot loves human women.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12222 alt.alien.visitors:10328
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFOs and Newage
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 06:40:57 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Folks: I'm sorry about that last posting. I should have put that
under the selection of Bigfootb.
John Winston
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12223 alt.alien.visitors:10329 alt.religion.kibology:4222
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 06:43:22 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear BF Watchers: It's tuesday and I hope the Big Foot haven't
captured any of you lately.
John Winston.
Xref: icaen talk.religion.newage:12224 alt.alien.visitors:10330 alt.religion.kibology:4223
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.religion.kibology
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!mv!gozer!klm
From: [e-mail] (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: Bigfootf spaceman?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.stupid.putz,alt.bigfoot.die.die.die,alt.flame,misc.test
Organization: GhostBuster Central - Southern NH Usenet Access, Nashua, NH
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 13:27:17 GMT
Lines: 7

[e-mail] writes and writes and writes and writes...:

> [utter crap deleted]

Dear John:

  Please Fuck Off[tm]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kal)
Subject: Re: Auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Sender: [e-mail] (Marchi, Khaled K.)
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 15:14:00 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>
>Kal writes and says,
>
>>I urge you to try this, if
>>you really think you can see the auras.
>
>>A opaque partition is set up.
>
>Who said that aura's could be seen through something?
>
>I am stating that I can see them around a person, not through anything.  I am not
>superwoman with X-ray eyes.
>
>Who thought this idea up?  This sounds like a joke.
>Sorry, but it sounds to me like a bunch of people were really being mean.
>
>Kathie  ;.)

As I mentioned to Kathie in email, Suppose a person is six feet tall.
Also suppose that the aura extends for lets say six inches all around the
person (any number will do.) The idea then is to build the partition
to be six feet, three inches tall. This partition will obscure the person
while allowing the aura to show above the partition. The idea is, hide
the person and expose the aura. Depending on what auras *do* penetrate,
i.e. glass, clothing (can you see the aura of a person with a sheet draped
over him? Can you see a person's aura through a glass door? Do any traces
of the aura remain after a person moves?) many devices can be constructed
in such a way as to hide the person while exposing his or her aura.


===============================================================================
Kal    [e-mail]             My opinions are almost, but not quite,
                                     entirely unlike those of my employer.
===============================================================================

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From: [e-mail] (Kal)
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>I would say, I can see it better when I have a solid white back ground.  I was
>at the park the other day, and I tryed to look at someones aura, but the back
>ground was a wall of grainy bricks.  I noticed that seeing an aura around people
>with a grainy background is a lot harder.
>
>Both of these are really good questions.  Some nights when I am really full
>of energy, yes I can see in the dark how long my aura shoots out of my fingers.
>
>I try not to look at everyones aura, but yes, it is always there.  I enjoy watching
>speakers talk.  You can tell by looking at their aura if they really believe in what
>they are saying or not.
>
>A spirit guide, or angle as some might call it.  A spirit that guides you down the
>path of life.  I can see them.  They look like another person standing by the
>person I am viewing.
>
>
>>You say the aura depends on the person feelings. How do you know
>>that ? Can you "guess" a correspondance between the characteristics
>>of the aura and the feelings/health/whatever of the person ?
>>id you try to guess accuratly the mood of someone based on your
>>observation ?
>
>We will start with the color Red.  It is the lowest of the colors.  I really don't
>know all the meanings of the colors, but they go like this.
>
>Red, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, gold and white.
>
>White is the best color you can find.  It is not around everyone.  You must be a
>very spiritual person.  I haven't seen to many white people.  But a few.
>
>I have seen Green, usually means the person is healing something in their body.
>
>Blue means they feel great!  Purple is a color I love, and it has to do with
>being intune with one's self, and knowing where one is going.  No hate is within
>this person.
>
>I don't know about gold, only heard a few things.  White is the purest of spirits.
>
>Yellow is when you are jealous.  Red is when you are angry.  I don't know about
>Orange.
>
>You can tell if a person is really bad, their aura is black, or murky brown.  YUCK!
>
>Not a nice color to see.
>
>When a person is ill, you will see in their aura, a sick looking color, and it is
>usally around the area that is ill.
>
>Hope this helps, if not, ask some more.
>
>Kathie  ;.)

What you're saying is, you can see auras in the dark. Great. Here's another
test for you. You are in a completely dark room. there is a door that goes
into another completely dark room. you go through that door, and see how many
people are in that room. You go out. Some people leave. Some people stay.
Some people come in. You go back in and count the auras again. Do this
a number of times.

Also, you imply that you can tell if a person is sick by the color of their
auras. This opens up a whole new area of testing.

Can you distinguish between people you know by the color, shape, vibration
or whatever of their auras?


===============================================================================
Kal    [e-mail]             My opinions are almost, but not quite,
                                     entirely unlike those of my employer.
===============================================================================

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From: [e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Vision Graphics
              Dover, NH
              USA
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 13:55:14 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: morwyn.uucp![e-mail] (Forrest Aldrich - SysAdmin)
Lines: 32

From article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] has written:
+--------------------
|In article<[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
| |> For all of you who have been waiting for a decent explanation of the
| |> drive/laser system, from the Federation, Here you are:
| |> Lady Rhavyn [e-mail], questions, ideas comments ?
| |> 1   Federation Science Academy;
| |>      Engineering Research Text
|
| Perhaps I missed something.  Just what the heck is this all about?
| Who is "The Federation"?  What is "the drive/laser system" and what
| is it for?
+--------------------

    I'm not sure they are even clear what it is about... information about
    it is posted here erratically.

    They also don't respond to specific requests for information... I've sent
    this "Lady Rhavyn" _several_ such requests via electronic mail, and they
    have gone unanswered.  I wish they'd stop cluttering the net with this
    garbage unless they are willing to be serious about any of it.

    The Federation "Guidelines" were remarkably similar in content to that
    of the Star Trek similarity... hmmm... copyright infringement? ;)

--
       -----------          Forrest Aldrich          -----------
       -------     morwyn![e-mail]      -------
       ----                             ----
       --         VISION GRAPHICS --    Dover, NH - USA           --
       ------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail] (What a long, strange trip it's been)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: SETI
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 18:08:14 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Paul Milsom) writes...
>
>                            SETI
>
>
>This might be a clever way for the US government to spill the beans.
>
>                    - Would it work?
>Paul Milsom
>[e-mail]
>Neu-Technikum Buchs Switzerland

Yes Paul... it works..
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Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, 19 Oct 1992 21:23:48 EDT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Lines: 15

Geez. I'm glad I majored in physics...NOT!

Just a short comment, folkz-
This posting looks rather technical;
and does not appear to be a lunatic rant;
EXCEPT for the fact that whatever
dweebs from "Federation Land" who wrote
this thing FORGOT TO INCLUDE PARAGRAPHS!

That in and of itself frightens me more than
alien visitors wanting to suck my glands.

BTW, is this stuff relevant to our newsgroup?...

Bah! I think I'll go watch HBO.
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From: [e-mail] (My name is...)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Belgium UFO observation - 7 Apr 1990
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Oct 92 20:59:58 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Phil) writes...
>One part of the show dealt with the recent (90's) Belgium interest in the
>phenomenon, due to a wave of observations that brought together the civilian
>organization SOBEPS and the belgium air force.
>
>On April 7th, 1990 nearby Liege, Belgium, a color slide of a ufo was taken
>that was later on analysed by the "Ecole militaire royale" under the
>supervision of prof Marc Acheroy.
>
>The slide, after having been digitalized, was image processed to render new
>information, one of importance being the shape of the object through blue
>color enhancement.
>
>I would like to know if the data file of this famous belgium UFO picture is
>available, if anyone knows the internet address of either the prof  or the
>military college I mention.
>
>I would like to use that picture in an image processing course here, merging
>several interests into one endeanvour.
>
>--
>---
>Phil Durocher                   McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
>[e-mail]      Computer Vision and Robotics Lab
>                                McGill University, Montreal


I'd like to see it too...

Thanks,

Mary Stanley
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: kjenks@gothamcity
Keywords: Federation
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 17:41:17 GMT
Lines: 40

>In article<[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> For all of you who have been waiting for a decent explanation of the
>> drive/laser system, from the Federation, Here you are:
>>[...deleted...]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] wrote:
> Who is "The Federation"?  What is "the drive/laser system" and what
> is it for?

The Federation is a small group of space enthusiasts in Alaska.  They
have an idea of using this laser as a spacecraft propulsion mechanism.
We discussed the matter on the phone and via e-mail.  They are sincere
amateurs, if a bit inexperienced in spacecraft design.  (For example,
they didn't realize that even a 100% efficient, zero-mass laser can't
lift itself and its electrical power source off the ground -- given
current technology power systems.)  They are frustrated with the slow
progress in propulsion system technology, and the want to do something
about it.

Their laser (if it works) would seem more suited to terrestrial
applications.  Buried deep in their technical description is the idea
that this is a poly-chromatic, nuclear-fusion-pumped laser.  I can
think of several uses for an efficient, high-powered spread-spectrum
laser -- some of which don't even kill people.  But they want to
further their causes in space exploration.

Don't discourage them too much.  They mean well, and they're trying.

-- Ken Jenks, NASA/JSC/GM2, Space Shuttle Program Office
      [e-mail]  [phone]

     "Even considering the improvements possible... the gas
      turbine could hardly be considered a feasible application to
      airplanes because of the difficulty of complying with the
      stringent weight requirements."
    -- US National Academy of Sciences, 1940

     "It may not be possible to build a vehicle with single-stage-
      to-orbit capability in the mid 1990s."
        -- US National Academy of Sciences, 1990
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 15:53:36 GMT
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Hi again Kathie,

thanks for all the info.

you say:


>Red, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, gold and white.

and associate each possible color of the aura with a feeling/health
condition. What I'd like to know is: how did you come to those conclusions ?
I mean, we have the base of an objective test here. I come up with say
50 persons, I guess there'll be at least a couple are
"healing something in their body", as you say, and a bunch will feel
jealous (Yellow) or in good condition (Blue). I mean, if it was me,
I'd like to come out with something more than a couple of vague definitions.

You also say you can tell if a person is lying by looking at the aura.
Well, that ability is the easiest to test ! What do you think is your
rate of sucess ?

Until that kind of test is done, I'll reserve my opinion.
I maybe skeptic, but there may be something behind that "aura"
thing.

The thing that bugs me is, if it was something like a light
radiation the average Joe coudn't see (like near infra-red),
how could it be uniform around a person ? Also, it could reflect
health (roughly), but certainly not jealousy or lies.


Just my thoughts,

JM.
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From: chris@kbsw1 (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <1992Oct20.160727.8607@kbsw1>
Date: 20 Oct 92 16:07:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Organization: Kentek Information Systems
Lines: 12

I bet if you do the math, you find out a couple of things:

    (1) The wattage to get photon pressure that actually lifts
    something is much too high to generate.

    (2) At the power levels necessary in (1) even a 99.99% efficient
        crystal vaporises before you get off the pad.


Keep trying though, enthusiasm is worth more than pessimism.

Chris Kostanick
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From: [e-mail] (scott.l.russell)
Subject: Where did everyone go?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 21:40:02 GMT
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Has there just not really been any new sightings/information about
UFO investigations or have people abandoned this newsgroup?

All I seem to see here is New Age "visitors are within us" stuff
and cheap shot banter. The New Age stuff I won't immediately dismiss
but where is all the "physical" evidence stuff? (notice that physical
is in quotes).


==============================================================
Scott Russell - AT&T Bell Labs Middletown, NJ
    Standard Disclamier Applies
"Man does not live by bread alone... there's always chocolate!"
===============================================================
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From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 21:12:47 GMT
Lines: 13

  Well done! The material in that piece sounds almost realistic.
  I love great sci-fi. The next issue to address is how much
  'harnessed nuclear force' one could actually generate using
  said device, and where this force would be applied/dissipated.
  Would we mount massive arrays of these devices at the propulsion
  end of our craft? Would we be able to generate significant force
  for acceleration? How long would it take us to reach Alpha Centauri?
  Do these devices operate in neutral and reverse as well and can we
  have automatic transmission? Put me on the list for tickets to ride
  the first craft powered by Quantum Effect Injection Laser!

  I really love this stuff, I do.
-Max
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From: [e-mail] (Diana St.Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 22:45:57 GMT
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I just had to jump into this thread.  What is all this about testing?  I, like
Kathie, have seen auras all my life.  My perceptions and interpretations work
much the same as hers but not exactly.

I feel that the bility to see auras is a gift and I feel no need to prove anything to anyone.  I really don't care if someone believes me or not (the
subject does not arise that often in conversation anyway).  It is just a part of me like my hands or sense of smell.

Diana
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From: [e-mail] (Good good good good vibrations)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 22:24:15 GMT
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Try to catch up on some of this while I am waiting for the typewriter man.

No not the lawn mower man.  He, he, joke there.

Ok, good stuff out there.  I will go home and do some experiments of my own.

When I am ready, I will let the group know.  I will then take the time to have

some of the people who are on the alias that are local, come and do these

experiments with me.  Then I will post.  Until then, believe what you want to,

I know what I see.

Thanks,

Kathie  ;.)
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From: [e-mail] (Walter Wohlmuth)
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of BC, Electrical Engineering
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: sci.space
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 17:41:33 GMT
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>For all of you who have been waiting for a decent explanation of the
>drive/laser system, from the Federation, Here you are:
>Lady Rhavyn [e-mail], questions, ideas comments ?
>1   Federation Science Academy;
>     Engineering Research Text
>
>
>A FEDERATION RESEARCH PROPOSAL:
>

Why is this article in sci.space?  Although the author presents a rather
long-winded description of his/her proposal it is shear fantasy.  The
cost of this project is immense in regards to equipment and work required.

>
>By the synthesis of several fields of scientific and engineering
>specialty, the production of a new form of space drive may be
>possible.  This new drive will represent a literal quantum leap in
>space propulsion technology, entailing as if does the reduction of
>space drive components to a single 51 centimeter crystal.
>
Excuse me, a crystal 51 cm long! Silicon wafers are currently about
24 to 30 cm in diameter.  GaAs wafers are about 15 to 20 cm in diameter.

>By exponential expansion, the crystal
>electric-magnetic fields should reach a strong-force counter reaction
>by the time the electron-current flow has reached the end of the
>crystal.   The end product of this action should be an quanta level
>release burst of energy along most known frequencies of the
>electromagnetic wave-band.    ( Harnessed nuclear thrust.)

I don't quite understand this.  The highest fields achievable in Si
or GaAs I think are about 20 KV/cm.  Which is equivalent to 5 V appearing
across a 0.25 mm gap.  These 'high' fields are present in your basic
computer chip.  Electron current is proportional to electron velocity,
but electron current is only proportional to electric field at low fields.
Applying a higher E field will cause the current to reduce because the
electron velocity will drop in GaAs, negative differential resistance.
Excessive E fields will disrupt the crystal lattice.
>
>1.)   If a conversion ratio of 1.5 Amperes produce 1/2 a watt of light
>(  1.5a=1/2w )  in a device 0.25 millimeters long, what will the
>wattage output be at the end of a device 51 centimeters long?
>

Most certainly not in the kW range, lucky if > 10 W are achieved.

>7.)  Combining semiconducting/piezoelectric lattice structures with
>super conducting/quasi-crystal ceramic tiling junctions in a
>north/front - south/back hyper-magnetic domain;  what will be the
>effect on piezoelectric compression?
>

Introduction of acoustic waves, which will reduce electron velocity,
and aid in non-radiative recombination.
>
>9.)   Experiments in 1981 proved that intense, coherent light flashes
>in an area of less then 1 millimeter lasted only ten-trillionth of a
>second produced electric fields thousands of times more powerful then
>those used in particle accelerators;  Combined with the possible
>hyper-magnetic fields generated by electric fields in motion, what
>would the classification of the field generated after the process has
>reached the theoretical 51 centimeters?
>

I would like a reference to this point.

It would be interesting to see the date at which the federation thinks
it will complete this process.  Completion of this project in ten years
is sheer fantasy.

Walter Anthony Wohlmuth
Tri-University Meson Facility (TRIUMF)
Microelectronics Lab
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 17:37:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Everybody: Boy you people can sure ask some complicated questions.
In regards to this space individual I mentioned by the name of Monka, he
is a person probubly in the 4th or higher dimension that is usually on
Mars at a commication center called KOR. This center is on a high
plateau in the north Regio sector.  In our OOBE this wednesday if all
goes well we will go there. Everybody who goes will have to promise
to come back to Earth after we get through. If they don't have time to
deal with us at KOR they will just probubly take us over to one of their
many temples of learning and knowledge. See you there.
John Winston
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Scott Borders)
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 00:42:36 GMT
Lines: 13


More new-age sewage.  People claim to be able to see auras (read minds,
move objects via telekenisis, predict the future, etc.), yet these
claims fall apart when subjected to controlled, scientific experiments.

Before the numerous accusations of "You have such a closed mind!" start
pouring in, let me say that I am perfectly willing to believe in just
about anything, *provided there is sufficient proof*.  I haven't seen
it yet.

Scott

--
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Browne)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Inde
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 22:34:00 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 13


>> I have been told that Switzerland is GMT plus one hour so when
>> it's 11 am GMT it's 10 am in Switzerland. Would someone please
>> ...
>> John Winston.

um, 11 + 1 generally equals 12, not 10...

Steve
----------------
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[e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Joseph Hojnacke x1823 dept640)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantasy
Keywords: new UFO newsgroup
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 20 Oct 92 20:44:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wyse Technologies San Jose, Ca
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Well, I've never posted an article before, so please be tolerant...
Anyway, I'm interested in UFO information.  I've been reading alt.aliens.
visitors and am really disappointed in the nonsense that gets posted to it.

I suppost creation of a newsgroup that deals more with the so-called
"facts" of the UFO phenomena and less with spinoffs like Atlantis and
auras and channeling and other cosmic newage stuff.

And I would like a newsgroup that acted as a forum for discussion of
sightings and discussion of recent books on the subject.
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From: [e-mail] (Randy Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 92 01:26:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kal) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
> >I would say, I can see it better when I have a solid white back ground.

> >
> >Both of these are really good questions.  Some nights when I am really full
> >of energy, yes I can see in the dark how long my aura shoots out of my fingers.


> What you're saying is, you can see auras in the dark. Great. Here's another
> test for you. You are in a completely dark room. there is a door that goes
> into another completely dark room. you go through that door, and see how many
> people are in that room. You go out. Some people leave. Some people stay.
> Some people come in. You go back in and count the auras again. Do this
> a number of times.
I think this is a reasonble test. Another test I'd like to see done is
one that would have 4-5 people who see auras and have them independently
describe the auras of several people and then see if they are describing
the _same_ thing.

I do believe that there are people who perceive aura's around others. The
question is whether this phenomena is a phenomena like sight where there is
some strong correlation between what various people see and if so,
whether this has to do with some physical phenomena (possibly yet to be
investigated). My honest  feeling is that the perceptions of auras is
more obviously influenced by suggestion than the other senses.

Now, pychologists have shown that people will tend to report the perceptions an
investigator seemingly wants to hear or those that the other people around
them are voicing-thus is makes at least as much sense to investigate this in
the case of aura's as other forms of sight.
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From: [e-mail] (\Robert James Hoge/)
Subject: I know an alien.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 02:19:41 GMT
Lines: 7

Do you want to know who?

--
 _--_|\  Finland,  ______________________________________________________       /      \ America, / \Robert James Hoge/  [e-mail] \      \_.--._/  France, \______________________________________________________/
      v <-------   UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA, LAUNCESTON, A U S T R A L I A.        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    / "Tasmania is so small, that we have a fraction for a zip code, really!"   \
\ /////\\\\\ Kop Jai Mag Krup /////\\\\\  [-I am *the*  S M E G H E A D !-] /    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    No, I'm not married!  But believe me if I was, I'd rather have the $50,000!!
################################################################################# I'm possesed with gambling. I just can't help myself. I'll gamble anything.  #################################################################################
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From: [e-mail] (Simon E. Booth)
Subject: Re: Federation gives a decent explantion to you
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 04:50:44 GMT
Lines: 9


This looks like the junk that some joker(s) keep posting in alt.alien-visitors.
The psuedoscientific info sounds interesting but the "Federation" part shot
down all credibility for the poster.  You know, this reminds me of the stuff
you read in the "technical manuals" that are written as companion books for
various SF stories.  I like good SF but not in the legitamate tech groups.
This isn't a flame, just my $.02 worth.

Simon
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Colleen Anderson)
Subject: auras auras everywhere
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: 21 Oct 92 09:09:24 GMT
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Well, I decided to get on the bandwagon too.  I have also seen auras, at
least that's what I call it.  I used to practice extending the light I saw
around my fingertips.  I did this in the dark, laying in bed so my hands
would be framed against the ceiling.  I don't always see them.  Sometimes
when a person is talking and I'm concentrating on what they're saying I will
notice a nimbus of light.  Other times if I decide I want to see someone's
"aura" I will work at it (concentrate) and may see it.  It doesn't happen
often nor all the time.  If I practiced then maybe, yes.
I have never been able to see colors much, maybe a murky grey or red but
usually the light looks white, like a halo--and not in that hokey, ah have
seen the lord sense.  I'm not sure what it is.  It may be a keener sense of
sight in the infrared/ultraviolet range or something just like some people
hear or smell better than others.  It may be no more miraculour or magic than
an animal scenting its prey.
I'm usually sane and can only say that I believe it's possible (through
experience) to see auras.  I'm much more dubious about the color affiliations
which sound like a traditional symbology that's hooked to many
western/european cultures.  What, for instance, would the Japanese or Chinese
say about a red aura.  I can't remember which but red is the traditional
color for women to be married in and I think it's both cultures.  Of course
if I read many new age books they tend to clump on colors in the most basic
sense.
So there you go, I'm sceptical and a believer. ;-)  Colleen
--
It's not how much I know that counts but how much I'm trying to learn.
The Crimson Bunion
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From: [e-mail] (Neville H Thomas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 92 10:46:01 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Diana St.Martin) writes:
>I just had to jump into this thread.  What is all this about testing?  I, like
>Kathie, have seen auras all my life.  My perceptions and interpretations work
>much the same as hers but not exactly.
>
>I feel that the bility to see auras is a gift and I feel no need to prove anything to anyone.  I really don't care if someone believes me or not (the
>subject does not arise that often in conversation anyway).  It is just a part of me like my hands or sense of smell.
>
>Diana


Seek help.
--
Email: [e-mail]   Fax: [phone]     Tel: [phone]
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From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors.sewage.garbage.bullshit.crackpots.fantas
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 13:45:18 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>1.  The ETS you are interested in,  that abduct and eat or experiment on
>people make up less that .01 per cent of the ET population visiting this
>planet.

Yes, we shouldn't generalize about *all* extraterrestrials based on
the negative actions of a few.

>Talking about???!!! Wendell Stevens is the worlds foremost UFO
>investigator.  He worked on project bluebook and continued investigating
>after he left the Air Force. He has written dozens of investigation reports

Poppycock! Stevens had *nothing* to do with Bluebook. Show me some
evidence (other than just some unsupported claim) that he did! As for
him being "the world[']s foremost UFO investigator", obviously that is
a matter of opinion, but nonetheless a dozen or so OTHER names come
to mind first.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Kal)
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Sender: [e-mail] (Marchi, Khaled K.)
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Organization: University of Houston
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 13:49:00 GMT
Lines: 65

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Diana St.Martin) writes...
>I just had to jump into this thread.  What is all this about testing?  I, like
>Kathie, have seen auras all my life.  My perceptions and interpretations work
>much the same as hers but not exactly.
>
>I feel that the bility to see auras is a gift and I feel no need to prove anything to anyone.  I really don't care if someone believes me or not (the
>subject does not arise that often in conversation anyway).  It is just a part of me like my hands or sense of smell.
>
>Diana

There are some valid reasons for testing. Number one, for me, is predictive
value. If auras are "real" (bear with me a second) then their benefit for
mankind in medicine, psychology, and even law enforcement would be great.
Scientific curiosity, the desire to understand why things work, is another
very good reason. Another one is that people who see auras make decisions
based on these perceptions. If they are not "real" (again, bear with me) then
I, as an employer, a judge, or a friend need to know this. And, on a more
selfish note, if they are real I want to know why *I* can't see them.

The testing, for me at least, is important in order to find out if these
auras are indeed what you perceive them to be, or something else. It
could be some sort of visual defect. It could be an aberration in how
the visual areas in your brain handles human forms against stattionary
backgrounds (both these effects have been documented). And, it could be
the see'er's imagination.

Now if you are not at all interested in finding out any of this, and you
want to live by what you believe, more power to ya. Very few of us have
something that we can use, real or not, that we can use to guide us in
interacting with other human beings, like auras seem to do for you.
I, however, can't go that route.

Say I am an employer, interviewing you for a sales job. You tell me that
you can judge a potential client's state of mind and reactions by his or
her aura. If what you see around that person is indeed reavealing, then
you are immensly valuable to me. If what you are seeing, however, results
from something within you (visual, neural, mental, whatever) and it is
something you refuse to investigate then I would be profoundly disturbed
by your decision-making process, and may not hire you. Now this is admittedly
an extreme example, but it does illustrate the uneasiness many of us feel
at being told this and being refused further proof. If I don't see an
aura, then I will disbelieve you, or your interpretation of it, until
it is shown to me.

I, personally, would very much like to understand something that I perceive.
Even a little understanding that goes beyond blind belief is good for me.
If I were in your shoes I would be asking myself, is this green aura around
this person that I see indicative of his jealousy, or is it something
generated by my brain, colored by *my* expectation of what that person
is feeling? Neither case is "bad", but one can be used to make decisions,
and the other can't (or is at least less reliable.)

Anyway, these are my personal thoughts on the subject.

p.s. there is also the small subject of a large dollar award ($50,000 maybe?
I can't remember) offered by James Randi and his group for anybody that
can prove their ability to see auras, in any of the methods we talked
about. So, philosophical discussions aside, do it for the money!


===============================================================================
Kal    [e-mail]             My opinions are almost, but not quite,
                                     entirely unlike those of my employer.
===============================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Marchi, Khaled K.)
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 14:06:00 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Neville H Thomas) writes...

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Diana St.Martin) writes:
>>I just had to jump into this thread.  What is all this about testing?  I, like
>>Kathie, have seen auras all my life.  My perceptions and interpretations work
>>much the same as hers but not exactly.
>> [more discussion deleted for brevity]
>
>
>Seek help.
>--
>Email: [e-mail]   Fax: [phone]     Tel: [phone]

Thank you so much for your invaluable contribution. Look, sir, we are trying
to have a discussion here. We would value any meaningful input from you.
But a flippant, denegrading comment like that is hardly polite, productive
or meaningful. It is certainly not welcome. I know it is very easy to
produce, I know it is very tempting, and I know you just *had* to make it,
to express all the disbelief, skepticism, and disgust you feel towards
the subject. But come now. Surely you can do better than "seek help."
Tell us why you think Diana needs help. Tell us why *you* don't.

===============================================================================
Kal    [e-mail]             My opinions are almost, but not quite,
                                     entirely unlike those of my employer.
===============================================================================

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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 92 15:16:12 GMT
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Hello all,

Just an observation......It seems that most people in prior posts have
been
*WOMEN* who have seen auras. This seems sexist:-)

BTW-------WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH alt.alien.visitors?

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



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From: [e-mail] (Christian T Fraboni)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: I know an alien.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 21 Oct 92 15:24:00 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert James Hoge/) writes...
>Do you want to know who?

     Yes. Tell us please...

   /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
   / "Good bye cruel world                ////// | // //    /////  ////    /
   /  I'm leaving you today.               //    |// //    //-    //  //   /
   /    Goodbye  Goodbye                  //     // ///// ////// //  \\    /
   /        Goodbye.                                                       /
   /  Goobye all you people               [e-mail]    /
   /  there's nothing you can say          [e-mail]        /
   /  to make me change my mind.                                           /
   /  Goodbye...."  (Pink Floyd "The Wall")                                /
   /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: HANNA-MARIA's UNIVERSE
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Sender: [e-mail] (USENET at noknic)
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 14:23:17 GMT

X-News: tnclus alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1338
From: [e-mail]
Subject:HANNA-MARIA's UNIVERSE
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:08:02 GMT
Message-ID:<[e-mail]>


    Hanna-Maria's all drawings about her universe and this story and
  two photographs are now available in anonymous FTP computer called:
    NIC.FUNET.FI
  in directory:
    pub/pics/gif/pics/people/famous.
  This article is named to:
    README.Hanna-Maria
  Two colour copies of two photographs taken from Hanna-Maria's
  drawings' celebration near the day 19.5.1992:
           Hanna-Maria-1.gif
           Hanna-Maria-2.gif
  Beautifull (I don't mean my own tangles) drawings are named as:
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-1.gif
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-2.gif
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-3.gif
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-4.gif
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-5.gif
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-6.123.gif      , ('map')
           Hanna-Maria-drawing-6.4.gif        , ('map')
  Please see the Reference list of the article (last two are from the 'map').

    (To those readers not familiar in using of anonymous FTP computers:

     *FTP    (program which makes connection)
     *NIC.FUNET.FI  (to desired computer)
     *LOGIN         (going in to the computer)
     *anonymous (this is given when username is asked)
     *username@computer (E-mail address is given here as a password)
     *cd pub/pics/gif/pics/people/famous (getting to the correct directory)
     *dir (list of files in this directory)
     *GET README.Hanna-Maria (give file name here also to which this is to be
                              copied, for example TO: STRUCTURE_OF_TIME.TXT)
     *binary  (set computer NIC.FUNET.FI to correct transfer mode)
     *GET Hanna-Maria-1.gif (  " , picture's size about 170000 bytes)
     *GET Hanna-Maria-2.gif (  " , picture's size about 200000 bytes) )
      ....

     *quit (ends the session)
       ...

    I'am sorry that my notes and my corrections of some notes on drawings
  have little spoiled them. I hope somebody could remove these
  'tangled points' made by me from these beautiful drawings.
    All of "Structure of Time"'s knowledge belongs only to my daughter
  Hanna-Maria. I have tried to be only as accurate clerk as possible in
  this matter.
    I thank God because His good will to mankind. He possibly gave us
  knowledge which perhaps will quide our science thousands of years ahead.



   Oulu - Finland  13.10.1992  Hannu K. J. Poropudas


 P.S.(Oldest Hanna-Maria's memory picture, which I have heard from her, is age
 of about three days in the maternity hospital, where one photograph is taken
 from her when she is on her back on the table and me putting down my head in
 order to look closely at her. She crumples then her eyebrows. She said that
 she remembers this as follows: "First the head came towards and then I created
 the body and the arms". This 'strange' memory picture has nothing to do with
 the article but I put it here because of curiosity.).

           ----


 ABOUT STRUCTURE OF TIME AND SPACE
 ---------------------------------



 ABSTRACT

 Detailed structure of Big Bang is presented here. This is also structure
 of time and space. The concepts of time and mass should be redefined in our
 standard physics.



   I try to draw here three pictures about structure of Big Bang, drawn by
 5 years old (28.4.1992) Hanna-Maria (my daughter) by God's good will to
 mankind.

 (I cannot draw here good circles so I draw them as lines, please
  insert colour photographs of Hanna-Maria's original pictures also here):


                 radiation periphery
   -----------------------------------------------
                                                   <-- (draw empty area here)

     0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0         (neutrinos, largest)
                                                   <-- (draw empty area here)
                 radiation periphery
     -------------------------------------------
                                                   <-- (draw empty area here)

       O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O           (neutrinos, middle size)
                                                   <-- (draw empty area here)
                 radiation periphery
       ---------------------------------------

                                                   <-- (draw radial lines here)
                 radiation periphery
         -----------------------------------
                                                  <-- (draw empty area here)

            o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o             (neutrinos, smallest)
                                                  <-- (draw empty area here)
                 radiation periphery
           -------------------------------
                                                  <-- (draw radial lines here)

                 radiation periphery
             ---------------------------
                                                  <-- (draw like star's
                                                       corona here, this is
                                                       "electric periphery")

                 radiation periphery                  (hard core)
               -----------------------
  "diamond" -->                                   <-- (draw radial lines here)
  (hard core)
                        .
                      central point


 There exist several hundred thousands radiation peripheries around of
 "time's starting point". I have understood that these are also inside of
 "bright fire ball" that exploded as our primordial Universe.

 I have understood that one radiation periphery represents Universe at certain
 point in "time" (my word "time" is descriptive here, because this picture
 is definition).

 Anti-World side explodes toward central point (=time's starting point in
 Big Bang) in picture. Structure of near region of "diamond" is in Figure 3.



                    Figure 1  Hanna-Maria's first Big Bang picture
                              (time's definition)


 Fine structure of boundary of hard core called "diamond" (and this is also
 fine structure of one radiation periphery) is as follows:
 (Please insert colour photographs of Hanna-Maria's original pictures
  also here):


                       o
   World side       o     o    neutrinos  (positive mass)
                       o

                    o  o  o

                    XXXXXXX   "mirror"

                    +  +  +

                       +
   Anti-World       +     +    neutrinos  (negative mass)
   side                +


  (always three neutrinos (neutrinos related to electron) grouped together)

   Upper and lower sides of "mirror" are in different places in "time"
   (my word "time" is descriptive here, because this picture is definition).
   Detailed structure of "mirror" is not explained here (I would only like
   to say that it offers unlimited energy source (although it could be very
   dangerous to use) available everywhere in space for future space-crafts
   (for very long space journeys). Its structure is due to expansion of World
   and contraction of Anti-World.)



                    Figure 2  Hanna-Maria's second Big Bang picture
                              ("space-potato").
                              Boundary of World and Anti-World and structure
                              of radiation periphery
                              (time's definition)


   Hanna-Maria said about two years ago that it is possible for neutrino to
 move in time, if you are able to knock neutrino's spin axis to opposite
 direction. She said also 5.5.1992 that if some object could knock all spin
 axis of neutrinos in one side of radiation periphery then it could move in
 time, such a way, that this object would appear in the other side of radiation
 periphery. Hanna-Maria said also that this object must have samekind of cover
 on its surface like "mirror" is (She said that it could be dangerous to try
 to go through radiation periphery, because object could burn and there could
 possible be no food to eat. Object could also remain in "wrong time".
 She said also that if object moves a little from its original place in this
 case then it could get to "Anti-World").

   According to Hanna-Maria's pictures Anti-World is in different place
 in time. This also is why hard core called "diamond" escaped destruction
 at the beginning of our primordial Universe (in Big Bang).

   I draw here detailed structure of near region of "diamond"
 (I cannot draw here good circles so I draw them as lines, please
  insert colour photographs of Hanna-Maria's original pictures also here):


           radiation periphery
   ----------------------------------------
                                               <--(draw radial lines here)
                                                   (these are neutrino cages
                                                    neutrinos cannot escape)
                                                    (colour= green area)
           radiation periphery
     -----------------------------------
                                               <--(draw empty area here)
                                                  (colour= red area)
                   o o
         o o o o o o o o o o o o o o           <-- "dancing" neutrinos
                                                 (there are too many of them)
                                                 (25 + 2 neutrinos in original
                                                                      picture)
                                               <--(draw empty area here)
                                                  (colour= red area)
           radiation periphery
         -------------------------
                                               <--(draw radial lines here)
                                                  (colour= green area)
           radiation periphery
           --------------------
                                               <--(draw like star's corona here)
                                                  (corona starts from pentagon)
                                                  (colour=orange area)
                                               <--(draw pentagon here)
                                                   ------------------
                                                  (="diamond" (yellow),
                                                    one radiation periphery)
                                               <--(draw radial lines inside of
                                                   pentagon)
                    .
                central point (=time's starting point)

                    Figure 3. Hanna-Maria's third picture (map) about
                              structure of near region of "diamond"
                              (time's definition, and map)

 Neutrinos can move freely in areas where there is neutrino periphery between
 two radiation peripheries.

 Radial lines represents "neutrino cages" where neutrinos cannot ever escape.

 Only some of the following numbers: 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 neutrinos grouping
 together, are so-called "souls".

 Neutrinos are destroyed in so-called "electric periphery" (= annihilation
 areas, like star's corona formations, or somekind of "pen"), which is around
 the "diamond". This "diamond" is also called "seed" (it is eternal).

 There exist also so called "fastener places" exact places of which is only
 known by the "Creator" ("God" or "Lord" or "Existence Himself" or
 "Heaven's Father" as said in Holy Bible (ref.2) or so-called "Soul of whole
 Universe").

 (Hanna-Maria said that "diamond" exists in every point in ordinary
 3-dimensional space (three ordinary length dimensions). I understand this
 that primordial Big Bang has happened in every point of this 3-dimensional
 space.)


  Hanna-Maria's definition of mass:
  ---------------------------------

   Electron and positron have both positive masses in World and their masses
 is only due to the expansion resistance of World (expansion away from time's
 starting point in Big Bang).
   There exist also electron and positron in Anti-World, their masses is only
 due to contraction resistance of Anti-World (contraction towards time's
 starting point in Big Bang).
   Electron and positron have both negative masses in Anti-World and they have
 have also bigger absolute values of masses there than in World.


 Other Hanna-Maria's words:
 --------------------------

 Energy loss in red-shift in cosmic background radiation goes to the
 Anti-World.

 Two missing neutrinos (both two have negative mass) of four Dirac's neutrinos
 are in Anti-World.

 There exist correspondingly "cosmic blue-shift" in Anti-World.

 There exist also six quarks in Anti-World like in World, but absolute
 values of their masses are larger in Anti-World.

 "Force" holds together the "diamond" (so-called "seed"). If neutrions go
 inside the "diamond" they fall in "prison" for ever.

 This "Seed" has existed always (It is eternal).

 When I asked does there exist negative time, Hanna-Maria answered
 that negative mass exists.

 Time difference (in our time units) between two radiation peripheries is
 100000 - 300000 years. Space difference between two radiation peripheries
 (in our length units) is few kilometer (from earth to clouds).

 I don't know what time difference one "space-potato" (in our time units)
 corresponds, but space difference (height) of one "space-potato" (in our
 length units) is 20 - 30 centimeters to 2 m - 5 m . "Space-potato" does not
 lie on the edge of Universe.

 Expansion of our World will stop in future in its evolution cource.
 This is a point where all mass disappear. Radiation peripheries also
 disappear and all "times" exist a while together.
 Our World begins then next to contract towards time's starting point and
 Anti-World begins then next to expand from time's starting point outwards.


 Why is abs(mass) in the anti-world greater than that in our own for base
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 particles:
 ---------

  I put her words accurately here (in parenthesis):

 (I don't understand her role in these, She has also said that Highest
  is very bright and heavy giant in Anti-World. She was only 5 years old
  when she spoke these matters).

 "Hanna-Maria threw a ball that Hanna-Maria had made from many small stones
  (=diamonds) to the center of the space. Abs(mass) is heavier in anti-world
  than in world is due to this very heavy ball."

 "Hanna-Maria sent flash of lightning other side of this ball (earth-ball,
  composed of small stones (=diamonds)) and small ball striked to it."

 "Ball's periphery is 50 km if Hanna-Maria (as an observer) travels around it.
  10 km if Hanna-Maria travels around it at the speed of walking, and 2 km if
  Hanna-Maria must go around it at the speed of a car."

  She said that this heavy ball is situated at time's starting point
  which lies also at center of the space. It is invisible like a "black hole".

  Ball's structure is in usual 3-dimensional space (three length dimensions).
                       10       50
  It's mass is (100000)  kg = 10  kg.

  Ball's mass increases contraction resistance of anti-world toward time's
  starting point (in Big Bang). Mass in anti-world is only due to the
  contraction resistance of anti-world toward time's starting point.
  (This contraction is uniform).


 Some new matters (randomly collected):
 -------------------------------------

 The real "diamond" at time's starting point (in Big Bang) is like 8/8-diamond.
 Both top and bottom of the "diamond" are symmetrically flat.

 Biggest neutrino is green in Hanna-Maria's picture and it has a part (about
 half) of its periphery violet. Middle size neutrino is violet and it has
 several orange lines drawn crosswise inside of it. Smallest neutrino is green
 and it is related to electron.

 Object must go through anti-world as fast as flash of lightning in order
 not to be distroyed. Smaller velocities are possible if object goes near
 some star or planet.

 The "ball" is her "wish ball" and it is so heavy that if it would came
 over the earth (in otherwords near the earth) then all would die due to its
 very strong gravity field. It has also very strong magnetic field.

 There exist also the "road of worlds", which is marked on the "map".

 "Mirror" in "Space potato" structure offers unlimited energy source available
 everywhere in space for future space-crafts (for very long space journeys).
 "Mirror's" structure is due to expansion of World and contraction of
 Anti-World. This energy source could be very dangerous to use. Around wires
 (that reach through "mirror" to the anti-world) there must be some kind of
 flame (neutrino (negative mass) radiating field) to protect them. She told
 possible current about 100000 Ampere and this should be possible about
 400000 km distance from Earth (behind the Moon). Energy can be collected to
 iron tank.

 Weightless is possible for objects having mass. This object must have some
 kind cover like "mirror" is. Weightless is achieved when object oscillates
 continuously between world and anti-world. Object is then totally isolated
 from gravity interaction.

 Hanna-Maria said that when her flash of lightning strucked to the anti-world,
 that is why there has become a force that humans (neutrino souls) are being
 caught there. Neutrino cages are areas which absorbs neutrinos. There exists
 neutrino cages of different sizes. One size are those bubble like formations
 of walls of galaxies (in distribution of galaxies) in Universe. Some of
 neutrino cages are room size (I don't know why these exists). Human being
 is also a neutrino cage for human being's "neutrino soul", but not like the
 first mentioned neutrino cage.


 New matters about Structure of Time (From Hanna-Maria's answers)
 ----------------------------------------------------------------


 Three existing neutrinos have two colours: green and violet. These colours
 are the two types of electricity in anti-world. There exist voltage in
 neutrinos that originates from anti-world.

 Neutrinos have also so called "magic" and so called "wonderfulness".
 "Magic" is related to 1,2,3,4,5 or 10 new dimensions.

 In these new dimensions Hanna-Maria sees (as an observer) neutrino's size to
 be like Earth's diameter or 1 - 6 Hanna-Maria's own lengths (about one meter,
 I don't understand this point at all).

 God can "conjure" by aid of neutrinos human (human's "neutrino soul") to be
 "naughty", "good-natured", "famous", "such who gets much money", "robber",
 "such who gets jobs from every places", and so on ... .

 The "space-potato" is "living" in a way that it can go to every place and
 God can "conjure" by aid of it all kind of things that He wants (He can
 "conjure" those "neutrino souls" to "princess", "prince", same kind of
 things than He can do by aid of neutrinos).

 When anti-world achieves its full collapse, then all humans die ("neutrino
 souls") except Hanna-Maria.

 Time is reversed in anti-world when one compares time's direction in world,
 and that is why expansion resistance gives negative value to the mass.
 Mass is only due to the contraction resistance of anti-world toward time's
 starting point (in Big Bang).

 Positron in anti-world is electron in anti-world which goes to the direction
 of positive time (in other words to the direction of world's time),
 (in anti-world there is reversed time's direction).

 Hanna-Maria said that trees are bigger in anti-world than in ours. She said
 also that God is about 5 - 7 meter high, bright and very heavy giant.

 Anti-world and world have the same time's starting point and center point.
                                                            6
 Mass ratio of anti-world and world is 6:5. There is 6000*10  units (unknown
                                                                         6
 units to me) negative mass (so called "magic mass") and there is 5000*10
 units (unknown units to me) ordinary mass in world. These both masses are
 constant. (Exponent could be 50 instead 6, and units kilograms).

 Contraction resistance in anti-world depends how far you are from time's
 starting point. Expansion resistance in world does not depend how far you are
 from time's starting point.

 From the full collapse of the anti-world we are now
                               12
 20*50*100000*100000 units = 10   units (unknown units to me).
 (Units could be here seconds).

 World side of "space-potato" is observable by aid of high energy
 scattering experiments to some arbitary "empty point" in space (antineutrinos
 related to electron, u-lepton or tau-lepton). "Space-potato" does not
 lie on the edge of the Universe.

 There exist magnetic monopoles.

 True singularity cannot form from our (extra-horizontal) reference frame
 (I'am not sure did I translate this (extra-horizontal) right to her).

 God's force was the reason which put world and anti-world on the move
 in Big Bang.



 Some explanations
 -----------------


   I would like to say that I believe (I'am a religious man) that our God has
 spoken these things through my 5 years old (28.4.1992) daughter Hanna-Maria,
 otherwise she must be the greatest human genius ever born.

   First story in reference pictures about "gigantic being" means at least
 two things: First it says that intelligent life is possible in Universe,
 and secondly this "big bang" happened in every point in 3-dimensional space
 (ordinary three length dimensions).

   The story in reference pictures about "diamond", "princess", "king",
 "robber" and little "brownie" means the story about history of this
 publication ("Structure of Time"), ("diamond" is the "prize of highest
 honour" in this story). I think that fire inside of mountain means that
 real "diamond" gets energy.

                         -----

   I have added two missing words to one sentence in my "Structure of
 Time". I have also added one matter about the heavy "ball", which is
 center of the space and a matter which I did not first understand (that is
 why I did not put it in my preliminary paper, I think that this is an
 important initial conditition at the beginning of our primordial Universe).
   I refer here to my paper <[e-mail]> in
 talk.religion.misc newsgroup where one little correction (one size 15 - 20
 meters -> 5 - 7 meters, it was given about as a hight of one tree, which I
 first estimated to be too tall) was made in compared to my paper
 <[e-mail]> which was in sci.physics,
 sci.astro and sci.philosophy.tech.

   I thank all readers for their interest about the subject. I hope that
 I have arosen interest for the discussions about Big Bang and about
 complicated structure of time. I apologize my clumsy writing style, it is
 due to that I'am only an amateur physicist and astronomer. I think that
 our space and our Universe is really worth to investigate further.



 Oulu  -  Finland  27.7.1992  Hannu K. J. Poropudas


          "There is a bottle of poison, if you look at it closely,
           you notice that a little is taken from it."

          "I promised never lie to God."

          "She said that she knows everything about the space."


 My address: Hannu Poropudas
             Vesaisentie 9E,
             90900 Kiiminki,
             Suomi - Finland.


 REFERENCES:

 1. All pictures drawn by my own 5 years old daughter Hanna-Maria:

    (These original pictures are essential, because I cannot describe them
     accurately enough by words. I have these pictures if you need to
     photograph them.)

  - two pictures 28.4.1992.
   (both two pictures are on one side of A4-paper.
    *First is structure picture of Big Bang, where two stories are included:
      One story is about "gigantic being" who wonders that space exploded and
      blod is flowing from being's mouth when space exploded on it.
      One story is about little crying girl "princess" who fetch "diamond",
      which lies on the top of mountain (fire is inside of mountain) on a
      holder) to her father "king", because her father asked that, and a
      "robber" who tries also get same "diamond" and "robber" says "I get all
      my honour" and "robber" gets the "diamond", but a little "brownie" gives
      at last the "diamond" to the crying girl "princess".
    *Second is picture about fine structure of one radiation
     periphery so-called "space-potato":
     This is formed from 7 neutrinos (positive mass) and 7 neutrinos (negative
     mass) related to electron, and "mirror" , which is between these ordinary
     neutrinos (positive mass) and neutrinos (negative mass). There is always
     three neutrinos grouped together.
  - one picture 3.5.1992.
    This picture of "space-potato" is backside of paper,
  - one picture without date (I have not marked date).
    This is about structure of "space-potato" and some my remarks about
    discussions with Hanna-Maria.
  - one picture 11.5.1992.
    About one above mentioned story and about structure of Big Bang.
  - one picture 19.5.1992.
    Four pictures all together (I prefer these pictures and "map" best of all):
     *One picture is "map" about structure of Big Bang near the "diamond".
      And "road of worlds" between World and Anti-World is also shown in
      this map (colours are also right in pictures).
     *One about structure of "space-potato" (fine structure detail of radiation
      periphery).
     *One about three neutrinos of different sizes and two different colours
      (largest is green, next is violet and smallest (related to electron) is
       green).
     *One picture backside of the paper about the place where "diamond" is
      placed. This "diamond" is formed from one radiation periphery.

 2. Pyh{ Raamattu, (The Holy Bible), 1981.
     -Vanha Testamentti (The Old Testament).
     (Obvious definition of God,given by Himself,Second book of Moses 3:14-15).
     -Uusi Testamentti (The New Testament).
     (Obvious definition of Christ (=God, and He does always what His Father
      teaches Him, given by Himself, Gospel of Johannes 8:28-29).
      ISBN 951-600-007-X.
      Pieks{m{ki, Suomen kirkon Sis{l{hetysseuran Raamattutalo.
      Toinen Mooseksen kirja, 3 Luku, Jakeet 14 ja 15, ja huomautus
      sivun alareunassa, Sivu 64.


 Latter part
 -----------

<[e-mail]>

   I would only like to say about Hanna-Maria's drawings and explanations
 that I believe in God's miracles, because I'am a religious man.
   I have tried to be as accurate clerk as possible in this matter, but I
 would like to point out that my writing may contain still my own erroneus
 interpretations about structure of time and space (Hanna-Maria's drawings
 and comments on them are the most reliable matters).
   About God I say that I believe God exists, because He is Existence, and
 if man argues that Existence does not exist, then he argues at the same time
 that he himself does not exist. I also believe that almost everything is
 possible for our God. This is a matter that we don't understand at the moment,
 because we are still so undeveloped compared to Him.


<[e-mail]>


 "Fossil Paradox":
 ----------------

   Suppose we could build a "device" by which we could travel in time.
 Now we have for example a fossil of a little mammoth in a Russian museum.
 This fossil was found as frozen in ice in Siberia's tundra (in Russia) some
 years ago. If I remember right this fossil was estimated to be about
 39000 years old.
   Now what would you think it would happen to this fossil if we
 could get this little mammoth as a living being from the time about
 39000 years ago to our present time, with aid of our "device" mentioned
 above. ?
   H-M said that this fossil would burn away from all times between its
 capture time to the present time, if we would bring it as a living being
 from time about 39000 years ago to the present time.


<[e-mail]>


  Could any one of you check reasonableness of the following figures
  by computer calculations:

                           50
  There exist about 5000*10  kg ordinary mass (positive) in the whole universe,
                               50
  and there exist about 6000*10  kg so-called "magic mass" (negative) in the
  whole universe.

  The universe is oscillatory in nature, in other words there exists
  periodically "Big-Bang-Start" and "Mass-Disappearance".

  Masses for all base particles are only due to expansion resistance of the
  positive mass part of the universe and masses for all base particles are
  only due to contraction resistance of the negative part of the universe.
  The reason why absolute values of all base particles are bigger in negative
  mass part of the universe is due the point of view that there exist
  an enormous concentration of mass in center of the space (about 10 power
  50  kg, radius about 8 km) (in Virgo Cluster) which increases contraction
  resistance in negative mass part of the universe.

  There exist equal number of all positive mass base particles and
  corresponding negative mass base particles (for example positive mass
  protons and negative mass protons, positive mass neutrons and negative mass
  neutrons, positive mass electrons, negative mass electrons, etc...).

  Positive mass part of the universe is expanding uniformly away from
  time's starting point and negative mass part of the universe is contracting
  uniformly towards time's starting point.

  I have understood that time dimension as a whole is like "length dimension",
  it is namely quantized by several hundreds of thousands of radiation
  peripheries, which starts from the time's starting point (in "Big-Bang") and
  ends to "Mass-Disappearance" point. This period is one cycle of our
  oscillatory universe. I have also understood that there exists only
  a finite number of these cycles.

  These radiation peripheries disappear when positive mass part of universe
  stops it's expansion. This is a point when universe's expansion resistance
  goes to zero. Mass for all base particles in positive mass part of universe
  is only due to this expansion resistance.

  Because radiation peripheries were formed from very small massive
  neutrinos related to electron (positive mass and negative mass neutrinos
  formed exotic particles called 'space-potatoes', this exotic particle was
  a fine structure detail in one radiation periphery), this mass is the
  reason why these radiation peripheries disappear when expansion resistance
  goes to zero. (This is also why 'all times' exist for a "while" together.
  This is also in a way a 'moment' when there is no 'time').

  I have not very clear idea what all 'happens' between the this point and
  "Big-Chrunch" (probably this latter does not exist at all). I'am also not
  sure what happens to the negative mass part of universe and will it stop
  contraction wholly (achieve its full collapse). I'am also not sure that
  what effects this invisible heavy mass (formed from diamonds) in center
  of space have to this collapse. It possibly prevents full collapse of
  negative mass part of universe. I don't know how individual radiation
  peripheries of 'diamonds', which formed this heavy mass, combine.

  'Diamond', which was formed from one radiation periphery, in time's
  starting point, which have an electric periphery or somekind of flame
  around it which destroys neutrinos will be saved from annihilation.

  From these figures and from this description it is perhaps possible to
  calculate the age of the universe and how much time it is to the
  "Mass-Disappearance", if you use the model of universe described
  above, to computer calculations.


<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>
<[e-mail]>


  Some possibilities for evidences:

  -  Uniformly from all over the sky coming gamma-ray bursts could be
   disturbances in these radiation peripheries.

  -  Quantized redshifts of some distant galaxies could be sign of existence
   of huge mass (about 10 exp 50 kg) in center of the space (in Virgo Cluster?).
   This mass concentration is like an enormous "elementary particle".
                                                                 37     -3
   It's radius is only about 8 km. It has density about 4.66 * 10   kg m  .

  -  Enormously and stabily magnified picture about very small scale structure
   of universe could possibly be seen in COBE's sky map pictures (if this
   process is possible in stablily and uniformingly expanding universe). It may
   be possible that details of radiation peripheries (exotic particles (called
   'space-potatoes')) could bee seen these pictures.
     However errors in these measurements are quite large. These spots
   corresponds also larger structures that possibly are larger than largest
   present systems in universe.

   Energy could be conserved in cosmic redshift of background
   radiation, if we make hypothesis about existence of one new "Universe"
   called "Anti-World", which consists of negative mass base particles, and
   which is uniformly contracting towards time's zero point.

   What would we see 'for a while', when we look out into the universe,
   about red-shifts of distant galaxies, if our universe would suddenly stop
   it expansion.?

   This is called a point when there exist 'no time' or a point when
   'time has stopped'.

   This is quite strange and catastropic point, because all mass and
   hence hundreds of thousands of radiation peripheries, which form the
   'time-dimension' would start to disappear at this 'moment'. And
   'for a while' 'all times' would then exist 'together'.

   Experimental scientific methods are difficult when we are treating
   time-like singularities and space-like singularities of general relativity
   which tries to describe initial singularities of our standard model of
   universe. This is due that we don't even know what kind of physical laws
   possible holds in so extreme conditions.

   In the model (Hanna-Maria's Universe) of universe, which I proposed in my
   article 'Structure of Time' time-like singularities, which must occur
   within the past of every point at an early time when the density was high,
   are avoided with aid of 'diamond'-concept (of course this 'diamond' is not
   a ordinary diamond). Space-like singularity is avoided with aid of
   'ball'-concept (earth-ball like huge massive ball is formed from
   'diamonds', radius about 8 km, mass about 10 power 50 kg), which lies
   in center of space (this mass is in center of Virgo Cluster ?, (H-M)).

    Scientific methods possibly indicate existence of this huge mass
   (possible effect is these quantized redshifts of distant galaxies, if
   this phenomena of quantization of red-shifts is real).
   Scientific methods indicate also existence of gamma-ray bursts coming
   uniformly from every direction from the sky and this possible also
   indicate existence of 'radiation peripheries', which separates positive
   mass part and negative mass part of universe and which is also related to
   time's structure.

   When something touches to exotic particles called 'space-potato' then
   it may explode and considerable 'flash of lightning' results (this exotic
   particle formed from positive mass and negative mass neutrinos (7+7, and
   always three together, neutrinos related to electron) was a fine structure
   detail in 'radiation periphery'. 'Diamond' was also formed from one
   'radiation periphery').


> Do you commit blasphemy by using this network created by science?
>
> Jim Hranicky ([e-mail])

    No, not in any name. I don't understand her role in some accurate citations
  from her talk. On the other hand she says also that the Highest is very
  bright and heavy giant, Who is in the negative-mass part of universe.
    She was only 5 years old when she drew her drawings and spoke these matters.
  These are all matters which we will never understand.

  "There does not exist 'mathematical' time-like and space-like singularities
   in the real physical universe."


<[e-mail]>


    Some defective definitions in our current physics:
    -------------------------------------------------


    I would only like to mention that definitions concerning particles
  and anti-particles are defective in our current physics. The definition of
  mass is also defective in our current physics.
    Masses of all base particles are only due to expansion resistance of
  universe in expanding part of universe and masses of all base particles
  are only due to contraction resistance in contracting part of universe.
  Negative masses in latter is due to negative expansion resistance, this
  also means revesed direction of time in contracting part of universe.
    Definitions of our current physics does not account existence of
  negative-mass particles and negative-mass anti-particles in contracting
  universe. This contracting universe is parallel universe to our expanding
  universe.
    Recently discovered gamma-ray-bursts coming uniformly from all over the
  sky could be disturbances in radiation peripheries related to this dual
  nature of our universe. These radiation peripheries are formed from excotic
  particles called 'space-potatoes' (space like size 20 cm - 30 cm to 2m - 5 m
  and I think that its time like size could be (space like size)/ c). This
  exotic is formed from positive and negative mass neutrinos (related to
  electron). These exotic particles may sometimes explode when someting
  touches on them and this may cause considerable "flash of lightnings".

      ----------

   This paper has partly been published (after 28. April) in newsgroups
 sci.physics, sci.astro and sci.philosophy.tech in the Net (some my discussions
 was also in March about time translation invariancy and conservation of total
 energy in red-shift of cosmic background radiation).

  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>

 and also in talk.religion.misc newsgroup.

  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>

 Comments in latter part is editted from:

  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>


<[e-mail]>

    I would expect that physicians could take little trouble and try
  to make a list of questions arised about the article "Structure of Time"
  and about two photogaphs taken from Hanna-Maria and her drawings.
  (Hanna-Maria have already answered here in these newsgroups to numerous
  questions made by astronomer Jon Russo, but I think that some questions
  could still be considered. Maybe there have remained some important
  questions which have not been yet asked.?)


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!news.service.uci.edu!ucivax!megatek!max
From: [e-mail] (Max Elliot)
Subject: Re: auras
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 16:10:32 GMT
Lines: 35

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Neville H Thomas):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Diana St.Martin) writes:
>>I just had to jump into this thread.  What is all this about testing?  I, like
>>Kathie, have seen auras all my life.  My perceptions and interpretations work
>>much the same as hers but not exactly.

  I just have to jump into this too!  If Kathie and Diana believe that they
  see these 'auras', that's fine and good.  They may not necessarily be
  observing a physical phenomenon whose effect is transmitted in accordance
  with common EM wave propagation. i.e. they might not be looking at 'light'
  in any part of the spectrum. It is therefore unreasonable to suggest that
  a partition which would obscure a person but not the area directly above
  or to the side of that person, would necessarily let the 'image' of the
  'aura' pass.

  The act of 'seeing' something may or may not have anything to do with
  stimulation of the optical cortex. I suggest that the partition scheme
  for testing these abilities is a little too narrow minded. On the other
  hand, if these 'auras' are something other than light or 'energy', and
  I suggest that they are, they may just be some aberration in the conscious
  process of the observer. i.e. a mild 'hallucination'. Which is also fine
  and good, as long as the observers can still drive safely and are not
  becoming disfunctional because of their 'sight'.

  All of us have slightly different sensory experience. Some part of this
  experience is objective and some subjective.  In some cases, individuals
  have extraordinary sensory experience. This may or may not be due to some
  physical or external phenomena. In the long run, it doesn't matter. They
  believe they see what they see, so they see it. Whether or not it has any
  pratical value to anyone but the observers themselves is unclear.

  Just my $.02,
  Cheers!
-Max

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: icaen!news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (<[e-mail]>)
Subject: Re: Where did everyone go?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 15:08:57 GMT
Lines: 64

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (scott.l.russell) writes:
>Has there just not really been any new sightings/information about
>UFO investigations or have people abandoned this newsgroup?
>
>All I seem to see here is New Age "visitors are within us" stuff
>and cheap shot banter. The New Age stuff I won't immediately dismiss
>but where is all the "physical" evidence stuff? (notice that physical
>is in quotes).
>
>
>==============================================================
>Scott Russell - AT&T Bell Labs Middletown, NJ
>    Standard Disclamier Applies
>"Man does not live by bread alone... there's always chocolate!"
>===============================================================

Scott,

I am sure a lot of people have abandoned this group because of a lot of the
sewage that is spewed forth. Most is not related to AAV but it keeps
comming.

On your comment about physical evidence: Yes, there is some physical evidence
but most of it is slim at the max. The Greys (I call them this because
most of the abduction reports I read describe the aliens as almost always
the same: grey skin, larger than normal head, large "liquid" black eyes.)
if they exist seem to either not need much "parafinalia" (sp?) to get
the job done (so there is MUCH to leave lying around) or they are
just extremely careful not to leave any traces. In most cases the only
real things that could be classified as physical traces are the landing
marks and in abduction cases there are other such as unexplained scars,
stains and bruises. None of these can be considered "hard evidence" but
still leave suspicions. It seems that the Greys very, very seldom leave
anything we can keep. For example, stains and such seem to evaporate
after a time. Landing sites/marks get grown over by vegitation in a few
days/weeks/months/years. Scars, bruises and sores heal or can be considered
as "abductee hoaxable". All this soft evidence tends to make a person
think its all just a game someone is playing to make a $. I don't believe
that completely. I know something is going on. I am not sure its exactly
what the abuctees are reporting but something is, its not a hoax. Well,
not in most cases.

I am currently reading The Watchers by Raymond E. Fowler. Its just a little
too entertaining and smacks of Contacteeism. I may not finish it. Its not
because of the incredible things that happen, its because of the way its
presented makes it "feel" like a good scien